D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] An experiment to nerf the full casters

[Jon_Dahl]

In all that time, in the tens of thousands of sword-swings we've taken in melee or the (probably) hundreds of thousands of shots we've taken in archer blocs or in competitions, none of us have ever dropped a sword (unless we've actually been disarmed, which is different), stabbed ourselves in the face or stapled our own feet to the floor. The worst I've ever seen happen is a longbow snap mid-draw during a speed-shoot, which notably failed to result in innocent bystanders getting an arrow through the head or any other situational comedy.

I know this isn't the same as a "real" battle situation in terms of pressure (although, hell, I've seen people get really badly hurt) but in my experience, the chance of a critical fumble happening for a trained martial artist of any stripe is so low that it's fundamentally not worth including in a fantasy combat system.

*Yeah, I too could see that making Abjurant Champion more popular

You have lots of interesting points. In my case I have studied sports and fighting in general and I came up with a fumble-table. Dropping your weapon is uncommon and it's usually about letting yourself get easily disarmed, not about throwing your weapon away. It's more common to have an injury or lose balance in a fight. In my games you strain a muscle or slip in a fight. Also there are several other effects, which make the game more exciting and random IMO.

Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBrST-LN2ik

 

[Dandu]

I've never understood the need for exacting details of realism in a game where you can set someone on fire by flinging bat poo at them and yelling out funny words.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've never understood the need for exacting details of realism in a game where you can set someone on fire by flinging bat poo at them and yelling out funny words.

Whether "exacting details" is the case, or just hyperbole, it can make perfect sense, depending on how you look at it (like most things, I suppose).

That which is supernatural in a RPG setting - and of course, setting is always key - doesn't need to conform to our current understanding of that which is natural (being supernatural ) whereas the natural in such a setting, according to some, should.

Simple as that.

Hence, in 3e, the difference (in principle, at least) between Ex, Su and Sp. Though the latter two could be grouped, for these purposes.

 

[Dandu]

A more mundane example is how archers can fire six arrows in 3 seconds.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

I've never understood the need for exacting details of realism in a game where you can set someone on fire by flinging bat poo at them and yelling out funny words.

Well in my case the idea is to add randomness and uncertainty into combat which makes the game more exciting. So if someone would prove my fumble- and crit-tables completely unrealistic BS I wouldn't care... so much

 

[Aus_Snow]

A more mundane example is how archers can fire six arrows in 3 seconds.

Indeed. Which is a fine example of where such seekers of realism might alter the rules, to suit their preferences.

D&D is hardly a beacon of realism, even among RPGs.* This is true. However, there's nothing stopping anyone changing it, to be more so. . . except for that which is supernatural, for example. Or hey, they could cut that out too - whatever appeals, is the right way to go.

* Hence, the "in principle" disclaimer, natch.

 

[Forgefly]

My problem with high level casters always involves save vs die/suck/held.

I wonder if an easy solution would be to change the range on some/most/all of these spells to touch and then changing defensive casting to allow you to replace your AC with the result of your concentration check against the attack of opportunity provoked.

 

[UHF]

Check out Iron Heroes. It is the 3.5 version of 4e.

Mearls Magic User (the Arcanist) is quite nerfed with respect to regular magic users. They get Power Points that they can spend every day, and they can design a spell or effect on the fly. For 2 Power Points, an Invoker can do a 2D6 zap at 35 feet. Reflex save for half. He gets 12 Power Points at level 1.

There is no save or die. It is powerful yet benign. Oh... and they can dish enough damage to keep up with a regular archer. (Sounds like fun to me.)

The combat in Iron Heroes is quite crunchy. Too crunchy for my tastes, but you may like that as well.

Full disclosure... I'm a 4e grog.

 

[Dandu]

My problem with high level casters always involves save vs die/suck/held.

I wonder if an easy solution would be to change the range on some/most/all of these spells to touch and then changing defensive casting to allow you to replace your AC with the result of your concentration check against the attack of opportunity provoked.

You may consider offering a save each round to end the affect, for spells where that would be appropriate. Tone down or ban the other spells.

 

[Slife]

So there you have it. Since epic Fighter can mishit a grovelling kobold, so too can Raistlin cast his nose off. Fair enough IMO.

So in your campaign rolling a natural one on an attack gives you a chance of cutting your own head off?