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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 1189882" data-attributes="member: 994">I've had a long day, so I could just need some sleep to clear my head, but I don't understand some of what you wrote here, Frank. I'll try to step through it.Let's start here. You say they don't gain any enhancement bonuses, but the 3rd sentence in the description is "The mehta gains a +3 enhancement bonus, which functions only in the arcane archer’s hands and does not stack with any existing enhancement bonus the weapon has (only the highest enhancement bonus applies)." So I'm not sure what you're driving at. And you're not actually creating anything, in a Craft Magic Arms & Armor sense. The "which functions only in the arcane archer's hands" part means outside of her hands it is not a magic weapon and could be sundered just like any other tree branch. In her hands, however, the AA starts automatically with a +3 bow. At 8th level (the earliest you could enter the class) that's nothing to sneeze at IMO, considering everyone else with GMW has a +2 max.I don't see the dependence you're speaking of. The AA can't create magic bows for anyone else, she just has a special affinity to "magic up" her chosen bow. It doesn't cost her experience points, it just costs a day or more to attune herself to the bow. By the end of the 10 levels, any bow she spends a day with (while in her hands) she's got a +5 bow with three +1 bonus special abilities (a total of +8) or a +5 bow with two +1 abilities and one +2 special ability (for a total of +9). Whichever abilities she chose are forevermore "set in stone" and, if she changes mehta's, automatically become abilities available on her new mehta (not that anyone could take advantage of them on the old one: out of her hands the mehta loses all AA abilities, and if she chooses a new mehta, the old one is destroyed). If she had Craft Magic Arms & Armor she could enchant her mehta above & beyond what she gains as an AA (to get to that +10 total bonus limit), but she certainly doesn't need to.You're right about the ability being continuous, I'll change it to a Su ability. WRT a Warrior 6/Wizard 1 getting a penetration level of 16 (vs 17), you're right again. But considering all the other bennies of the class, I think that's a fair trade. By your own example, if an AA continues taking Wizard levels after finishing all 10 AA levels, at 20th level he'd have a penetration level of 19. That's still a 40% vs a straight 20th level caster's 45% to nail that Pit Fiend. It is 5% less, but I don't see that difference as being subpar.OTOH, giving a higher spell penetration level to a Wizard 12 (or any other combination which actually raises it above character level) isn't a real problem to me. It's another potential benefit of the class. If I'm convinced that it's overpowering it's easy enough to limit the total to character level.I'm not sure what you mean by "the minimum level to get the second increase is 16th". With a Warrior 6/Wizard 1 you could take 9 levels of AA. At that level your mehta becomes a +5 enhanced weapon. On top of that you've added two +1 special abilities, so it's really got a +7 total bonus. And why wouldn't it cap out at +5? It's pretty well accepted that only Epic rules allow enhancement bonuses of +6 or more.I wasn't trying to anticipate every possible combination. I was trying to make sure that it is balanced (or at least not overpowered) when someone enters the class the earliest they can, level 8. Even if you waited until you were a Wizard 12 like you mentioned, you still start out with a +3 enhancement bonus on your mehta. Could you simply cast GMW on it for the same +3 instead? Sure, but now you can use that 3rd level slot for something else and don't have to worry about anyone dispelling it. Over the next several levels your mehta will gain extra abilities and be on par enhancement-wise with everyone else's weapons. In trade for losing out on 5 levels of spellcasting advancement you gain better HD, better Reflex saves, better Skill points, better BAB, lose nothing (or gain an additional +4) on penetrating SR  and get lots of magical bow goodness. Is that a fair trade at any level? I hope so, depending on your concept. If they only want a level or three to pick up Imbue Arrow, a few other abilities and a +3 bow, fine by me.You made a lot of good points in other posts and threads about the need to change the multiclassing rules in general, and convinced me on several of them, but I'm not trying to overhaul those rules here. What I am trying to do is address some of those concerns in the build I've laid out.Penetrating Arrow is only 1 less than a straight 17th level caster if you take the fast track, and I think that's very respectable. The enhancement bonus tops out at +5 like Core expects, and on the fast track that occurs as early as I feel comfortable with (4 levels earlier than GMW allows).I could see granting all 10 levels to add for item creation purposes, instead of just the 5 you get with spells, but I'm not trying to make a magic item crafter class here. I'm trying to give a magic-using archer a kick@$$ magical bow while keeping her fighting abilities with other weapons less than a straight fighter (to mechanically show that she's specialized and doesn't use other weapons as well), and continue her arcane abilities at a rate slower than a straight caster (again, because of her specialization). The bow only works for her because permanently enchanting any bow she lays her hands on for a day without XP costs is extremely unbalancing. In her hands, it's devastating. Once she lets go, it loses all the mehta abilities she bestowed upon it. That way, it can't be used against her and no one else gains her advantages.Frank, I apologize for the misunderstanding on several points here if it's on my end. Hopefully you can straighten out my confusion or your comments will make more sense after I've slept! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Or, most likely, we're just disagreeing! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Whatever the reason, thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it!</blockquote>

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