D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Arcane Archer Rebuild

[DrSpunj]

While I've always thought the Arcane Archer was a great concept, WotC's implementation in 3.0 I thought was a fair bit off. I was hoping for a revision with 3.5 but no such luck. Actually, with the decoupling of bows & arrows stacking, along with Damage Reduction for Magic becoming flat "magic" and non-plussed, I'd argue that it's actually a fair amount weaker than it was before, and IMO it was only slightly overpowered to begin with (and that only the +5 arrow thing).

I spent some time the last couple nights looking at the Imbue Arrow ability. I posted my thoughts in the Rules forum. Here's the link:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67023

Regardless, I was hoping to tinker with the Prestige Class a bit [EDIT: using the 3.5 rules set]. I think getting access to +5 arrows all the time as early as 16th level is too much now that Greater Magic Weapon doesn't allow that until 20th level. And not getting any spellcasting advancement is also pretty silly IMO. Seeker Arrow (which is only usable once per day) is nearly entirely replaced by the 3.5 Improved Precise Shot feat (except for going around corners...once per day...whoopee). Phase Arrow is kind of nifty, but again once per day makes it nearly useless. Hail of Arrows is really cool, but Arrow of Death is really a waste. On the fast track you can get it at 17th level. A Fort DC 20 at that level is almost nothing for enemies of comparable power, and using the ability on a grunt of much lower level who won't blow off the save is probably someone you could likely kill with your standard +5 arrow!

Here's the original:
http://3.5srd.com/web/sovelior_sage_srd/Sovelior%20SRD/arcaneArcher.html

I haven't fleshed out the entire thing, but here's what I was thinking of after taking a close look at the 3.5 Prestige Classes:

HD - unchanged (d8)
Requirements - unchanged
Skill points per level - unchanged (4+IntMod)
Skills - unchanged
BAB - unchanged (Full)
Saves - Average Fort, Refl & Will (I agree with a better than poor Fort & Refl save, like the original, but with better spellcasting progression I think a better than poor Will save is also in line)

Class Abilities:
1st - Enhance Arrow +1
2nd - ?
3rd - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
4th - Enhance Arrow +2
5th - Phase Arrow (Once per 2 Class levels per day)
6th - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
7th - Enhance Arrow +3
8th - Hail of Arrows
9th - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
10th - Enhance Arrow +4

At 2nd level I'm not sure what to add.

I'm still not convinced Imbue Arrow, as it's written, is even worth having. But at least with +3 spell levels over the life of the class, there's a good chance you could gain access to 4th level spells by 20th level, so it may be worth something. I'm not sure how I'd change it to make it a little more worthwhile.

I was also thinking of something to help with ammunition, either a class level bonus to craft checks for making arrows, or the ability to magically create a nocked arrow whenever you drew your bow (like Hank's bow in the old D&D cartoon), or something along those lines.

Has anyone else worked on something like this? Please critique!

Also, I remember a year or more ago someone posting that instead of the Arcane Archer gaining Enhancement bonuses every other level, they should gain the ability to add Magical Properties to their arrows. For instance, a +1 ability could be Shock, or Flame, or Icy or whatever. I'm not sure if they wanted that to be selected each day, like a Wizard selects their spells, or whether that was a fixed choice made whenever the Arcane Archer got the ability. Either way, I thought it was a nifty idea. Anyone more familiar with it?

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'd argue that it's actually a fair amount weaker than it was
before, and IMO it was only slightly overpowered to begin with (and that only
the +5 arrow thing).

Compared to what? The earliest you could get to level 10 of Arcane Archer in 3rd ediiton was 17th level. A Cleric Archer had Greater Magic Weapon that handed out +5 weapons all day long at level 15. And this only cost the Cleric Archer spell slots that she wouldn't have anyway had she gone Arcane Archer instead.

Cleric Archers could and did do everything that Arcane Archers could do, better. And they still can in 3.5. And looking at your write up - they still can with your version as well.

The Mystic Theurge is weak (provably: a Wizard 20 can cast summon monster with his 6 extra high level spell slots to gain more clerical spellcasting than the MyTh Wizard 17/ Cleric 13 gets with his entire 13 levels of Clerical spellcasting). And any class which gives benefits in two non-stacking combat modes (like spellcasting and archery) at a rate slower than that is aligator food at high level.

If you choose to go the Mystic Theurge route - you have to go all the way. The Eldritch Knight is too weak, but if you took that progression and spiced it up with some Archery abilities it might be OK.

-Frank

 

[DrSpunj]

Cleric Archers could and did do everything that Arcane Archers could do, better. And they still can in 3.5. And looking at your write up - they still can with your version as well.

Well, as I said above, I'm interested in playing an Arcane Archer, not a Cleric Archer. I've posted here in the House Rules forum looking for help to beef up the Arcane Archer Prestige Class to a degree where it is both a fun and worthwhile choice (mechanically speaking).

I've read many of your posts on class balance and it's obvious you've given Archer builds a lot of thought. Please use that to reconstruct this Prestige Class into something better. Critiquing is easy, now help with the hard part!

Thanks.

 

[Chacal]

Interesting,

I also whish imbue arrow was a more useful ability, cause it sounded cool on the paper.

Here is a rough idea ( I don't have the books handy so most of the vocabulary is probably wrong ;-) )

starting at 2nd (resp. 5th and 8th) level, the arcane archer can spend
spells slots to allow him to shoot with its bow /or arrows with a special ability equivalent to a +1 enhancement bonus (resp +2, +3).


Half of the spell levels used in this way must be relevant to the special ability ( i.e fire spells for flaming).


The enchantment lasts (total spell levels used) / enhancement bonus * 10minutes . It can be dispelled like a spell of a level equal to the highest slot spent.



Chacal

 

[Nail]

As I see it, the House Ruled Arcane Archer should refocus on his core concept. That concept is not "look at the neat attacks with arrows I have". We've already got that in other PrCs, in spades (OoAI, DWS, etc.)

IMHO, that concept is: "an archer that casts spells with his arrows".

Refocusing on that would be cool.


(EDIT: At last! I can access th' boards!)

 

[Zad]

Interestingly the progression you mention is very similar to what we did in our campaign. The problem with the Arcane Archer is that you're not very Arcane and never will be.

We altered the saves slightly (good ref, weak fort/will) and the powers table. I'm working just from memory here but this is damn near what we did.

1st - Enchant Arrow +1
2nd - Imbue arrow (kept it, dumby or no)
3rd - Enchant Arrow +2
4th - +1 level of existing arcane class
5th - Enchant Arrow +3
6th - +1 level of existing arcane class
7th - Enchant Arrow +4
8th - Hail of Arrows, +1 level of existing arcane class
9th - Enchant Arrow +5
10th - Death Arrow

Over the 10 levels, you gain 4 arcane levels, so that helps you do some more interesting things. The phase arrow/seeker arrow things all just ended up being somewhat silly and not useful.

Currently I'm up to 21st level, and I've rarely used imbue in all that time. Once in a while, but it's special circumstances. Hail is ok, and becoming more so with each AA level. Death arrow is virtually useless by the time you get it - anything can make a dc20 fort save. Making it 10+AA level+int/cha modifier would have been better.

Is the class the be-all and end-all? Nah. But I've really enjoyed it and the campaign.

Sadly, with 3.5 it becomes somewhat moot. If Imbue Arrow was a feat, you could just do a fighter/wiz/eldtrich knight combo, and make better progress that way given a magical bow.

 

[Ferret]

Let the arrows that they shoot be considered magical from 1st level, then later have it be able to split.... If you get stuck the amazon class in diablo has some good ideas.

 

[Nail]

The problem with the Arcane Archer is that you're not very Arcane and never will be.

That's the big problem, as I see it. Drop all this "seeker-phase-hail" nonsense, and figure out a way to make it more arcane.

Death arrow is virtually useless by the time you get it ..

I'd rather classes and spells stayed away from "insta-kill" type abilities. Either you have to make the save wussy enough that most make it, or you make the skill too powerful.

Why not use Eldritch Knight as a model? Or Spellsword? Make this an archer that uses arcane magic, not just an archer with one or two uber-abilities.

 

[DrSpunj]

Make this an archer that uses arcane magic, not just an archer with one or two uber-abilities.

Okay, you've pushed this point twice now, but I don't see you elaborating on any ideas here.

It's a good idea, getting back to the Core concept. What does that mean to you?

To me it means possibly one of two things: 1) an archer who casts arcane spells with their bow & arrows OR 2) an archer who can arcanely enhance his bow & arrows with nifty abilities.

Either way, I think the class should have full BAB or at least full BAB with bow attacks. Borrowing from Monte's AU & the Mageblade, that core class starts at first level with a +1 weapon called an athame, any mundane bladed weapon the Mageblade spends some ceremony time with. In his hands its a +1 weapon, and every 4 levels its enhancement increases by an additional +1. They only get 3/4 BAB progression, but with their athame they actually equal full BAB 3 levels out of 4, and surpass it by +1 every 4th level. It's a neat trick to signify a special affinity with their chosen weapon, while at the same time lessening their combat prowess with any other weapon. (BTW, if the athame is destroyed, lost, or they find something they like better it's a simple ceremony to designate a new one, though the old is automatically destroyed IIRC). I think that could be put to good effect here, with the Arcane Archer's chosen bow.

To borrow further from the Mageblade, they only get half the spellcasting ability compared to "full" casters (ie. Magisters & Wiz/Sorcs). To simulate that here I'd probably go with "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class" every other level.

If Imbue Arrow applied to ALL spells (after all, if you allow it to work on Area & Touch spells, there aren't that many left you're excluding) from 1st level, then it would be a very useful ability. I'm not sure if that's too powerful or not, but it's easy enough to say that you can only use Imbue Arrow with spell levels less than or equal to your AA class level. That is, a 1st level Arcane Archer could only use Imbue Arrow with Cantrips & 1st level arcane spells; a 2nd level AA could use 0, 1st & 2nd spells with Imbue Arrow; etc. (This latter part is somewhat borrowed from the Spellsword's channeling ability, but I always thought that was a bit clunky. YMMV but I think this is a bit more elegant). That means even if they had access to higher level spells, they couldn't use them with Imbue Arrow unless they were of higher AA level. I think this would help prevent dipping into the class for just a single level to pick up Imbue Arrow.

I don't have my AU with me now, but there are other abilities that might be borrowed from the Mageblade. I think they can summon their weapon to them and do some other nifty things that might also work here.

Also, I'm still really keen on allowing the Arcane Archer to enhance his bow and/or arrows with magic weapon special abilities (of course these would only function for the AA). Being able to add the Flaming ability (or Bane, Shock, Frost, Seeking, Distance, Thundering, etc.; which are all +1 Ranged Weapon abilities) would be really cool, and to me further separates the AA from just being a Ftr/Wiz multiclass. I'm thinking of something that would be selected in the morning, like a Wizard memorizing their spells, but if that's deemed too powerful it could also be something the character chooses permanently when gaining the designated AA level.
Looking over the Ranged Weapon Special Ability list Speed at +3 and Brilliant at +4 could easily be left off the potential list, leaving all the +1 and +2 abilities. Maybe a +1 ability at 3rd level & 5th and a +2 at 7th & 9th?

Finally, because Sundering an AA's chosen bow would be so devastating (and it's a fairly common tactic against archers), I think one minor ability that would be cool is making it a bit tougher while in the hands of the AA, so it's more resistant to damage. It already gets some of that by being designated a magical weapon, and maybe that's enough. I'll have to review those rules as I haven't really read them recently.

Anyway, putting that all together I come up with the following:

BAB - 3/4

Class Abilities:
1st - Athame-like Bow, Imbue Arrow
2nd - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
3rd - Enhance Bow w/+1 bonus special ability
4th - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
5th - Enhance Bow w/+1 bonus special ability
6th - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
7th - Enhance Bow w/+2 bonus special ability
8th - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class
9th - Enhance Bow w/+2 bonus special ability
10th - Spells per day +1 level of existing arcane class

What about that guys?

BTW, thanks for everyone's input on this!

 

[FrankTrollman]

The Core Concept is that you shoot arrows and that you cast spells, and most importantly of all you cast spells while shooting arrows.

Now, the thing we really want to compare it to is the Leadership Feat - since you could always just be a Wizard who has a Cohort who is an Archer, or an Archer who has a Cohort who is a Wizard. The level drop on Leadership is two levels - so the Arcane Archer should in total cast spells and shoot arrows simultaneously at most 2 levels worse than a single classed character of the same level.

The other thing we are running into is that a SC spellcaster gets benefits from GMW based on their entire character level, while the written up Arcane Archer is getting benefits to just her arrows based on Class Level (and as this is a PrC you are multiclassed) - which means that she is starting out behind and essentially never catches up (especially if you take a round-about route into the class). To fix this, the Magic Arrows ability should be a one-time ability which gives out magical arrows based on your character level (not you class level). I suggest fixing it to 1/3 of your character level - as this is the same kinds of arrows that a Single Classed Spellcaster could enchant with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Note that even so this is essentially not an ability, as a mid-level character can essentially replicate this ability with one of the spell slots that the Arcane Archer is giving up just by taking the prereqs for the class.

Now, for Prereqs: the character should be casting spells at most 2 levels down from a Single Classed character - and in turn should be fighting at most 2 levels down from an Archer character. I suggest therefore, prereqs of: Ability to cast 2nd level Arcane Spells, and: BAB +4. This way, the fastest way to qualify is 4 levels of Wizard and 2 levels of Ranger, or 4 levels of Bard and a Fighter level.

Thereafter you should be getting a Spellcaster level and a BAB every single level for the duration of your stay in the class. Furthermore, you should be getting archery combat abilities every single level. If you don't, you are falling farther behind a multi-classed Fighter/Ranger/PrC Archer and you are already as far back in archery capability as if you were your own cohort.

I suggest at least 4 skill points per level, as you are in fact expected to take the roll of two different characters.

And finally, the character needs to be able to shoot arrows and cast spells in the same round all the time. I suggest that the character be able to spontaneously make one of their arrows act as a "spell storing" type arrow once per round. Note that a normal Wizard can simply create a bunch of Spellstoring Arrows for a neglible cost and then hand them to an Archer Cohort - so this isn't a big dealio one way or the other (although it is very schticky).

-Frank