D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Arcane Archer Rebuild

Some good thoughts there, Frank, and I'll have to give them some thought. However, this part I had to comment on:

FrankTrollman said:
I suggest fixing it to 1/3 of your character level - as this is the same kinds of arrows that a Single Classed Spellcaster could enchant with Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Note that even so this is essentially not an ability, as a mid-level character can essentially replicate this ability with one of the spell slots that the Arcane Archer is giving up just by taking the prereqs for the class.
If you're referring to Greater Magic Weapon in that last sentence then under 3.0 I would have to agree with you, but under 3.5 (which is what I'm interested in and I'll edit the initial post to make that clearer, sorry) it's not truly replicated with the now +1/4 level ratio.

And one thing that makes me hesitate to use character level is someone dipping into AA for a single level and getting a pretty significant bonus. With good BAB and at least 4 skill points, plus the bonus to Saves you always get for the 1st level of a new (prestige) class, the prerequisites will have to be a fairly significant deterrant to prevent this.

Thanks.
 

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And one thing that makes me hesitate to use character level is someone dipping into AA for a single level and getting a pretty significant bonus. With good BAB and at least 4 skill points, plus the bonus to Saves you always get for the 1st level of a new (prestige) class, the prerequisites will have to be a fairly significant deterrant to prevent this.

The concept is that you need a BAB of +4, 2nd level Arcane Spells, and Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Precise Shot.

So there's really no way to get into the class without giving up substantial amounts of combat abilities (as there is no way to get a 2nd level Arcane Spell without giving up at least one BAB), or significant Magical Abilities (how many wizards give a damn about Rapid Shot?), or both.

In fact, the least intrusive way you could take the class would be to take it at 9th level as an otherwise straight wizard. But what does a 9th level wizard care if any arrows she fires are +3? A straight wizard doesn't even use arrows (being at this point 4 BAB behind a real fighter) - and she could cast GMW for +2 arrows essentially for free (which would then be transeferable to people who had real BABs and actually cared).

In short, the ability to gain level-appropriate combat abilities doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot when you don't actually have a level appropriate Base Combat ability to start with.

Or to put it another way: that very same 9th level wizard could have spent the feat on Rapid Shot in Leadership instead and gotten a Ranger Cohort with a BAB of +7 who could then use the +2 arrows out of GMW. And that would be more attacks at a higher attack bonus - and a lower stat dependency upon one character (in that the Ranger could have a good Dex and the Wizard have a good Int).

So I don't see anyone taking this class because they just happen to qualify for it. People who qualify for it have already shot themselves in the foot attempting to fit an archetype which in D&D is profoundly sub optimal.

-Frank
 

FrankTrollman said:
So I don't see anyone taking this class because they just happen to qualify for it. People who qualify for it have already shot themselves in the foot attempting to fit an archetype which in D&D is profoundly sub optimal.
So...what might you do to make the PrC bearable, if not optimal? Helpful suggestions?

[EDIT] Link to the Rules Forum discussion of the Imbue Arrow ability as defined in 3.5e.
 
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Nail said:
So...what might you do to make the PrC bearable, if not optimal? Helpful suggestions?
I've asked you the same questions, Nail, but have yet to see too many suggestions from you throughout the 3 threads we all have going now! :)

I like a lot of these ideas people are throwing out. I still have to disagree with Frank that the AA should get full BAB & full spellcasting since he also gets nifty arrow abilities. Making those arrow abilities nifty enough that it's worth losing out on some Fighter feats and some spellcasting power is what I think we're all struggling with.

It seems obvious to me that with all the incarnations of it posted here, Imbue Arrow is obviously the key everyone is focusing on to make this class fly. I still want to spend some time looking at the Mageblade, which I didn't get to last night.

Thanks.
 

So...what might you do to make the PrC bearable, if not optimal? Helpful suggestions?

I would like to get rid of all the split class PrCs, and instead make alterations to the multiclass rules which would make having a split class character worthwhile. Such changes would include:

Set Spell Penetration by Character Level. As we know, a pit fiend has Spell Resistance of 32. And at 20th level you are expected to fight one. ou are also expected to have a caster level of 20 - against which a Pit Fiend your spell gets through only 45% of the time. If you are missing five caster levels, the Pit Fiend will only let your spell through 20% of the time - which means that you are less than half as effective. If you are missing 9 caster levels in 20 levels, you have zero chance of affecting the PitFiend - and your character is worthless. The SR is a "you must be at least this tall to fight this monster" index. Like DR. As such, it shouldn't punish you for taking specific conformations of classes - it should just be a character level check. That's supposed to be the measure of how tall your character is overall anyway.

Set Saves by Hit Dice. This is a lot simpler than setting them by spell level - as it is already the mechanic of Gsze Attacks, Breath Weapons, and Poisonous Stingers. Furthermore, it solves the problem that people with low-level spells can't really make people fail saves. Currently, a 9th level spell has a save DC which is 8 higher than a first level spell. Since people are supposed to fail saves against spells at their level 40-60% of the time - subtracting 40% from that number means they basically don't fail ever. Heck, even a 5th level spell is half as likely to work, which means that the split classes character may as well just go home.

Set Level Dependent Spell Effects by Total Character Level: Your character level is a measure of how tough monsters you should be fighting. Thus, it's a measure of how much damage your fireballs should be doing. That the split class wizard is doing less than that means that he sucks.

Replace Arcane Spell Failure with Non-Proficient Spell Failure. There are several reasons to do this. The most obvious is to help the Wizard/Fighter multiclassed character. After all, when a Wizard/Fighter can't use armor that's not a nerf of the wizard class (the wizard class on its own can't use armor anyway), it's a nerf of the Fighter levels. They are supposed to be giving you armor wearing capability and aren't. The other reason is to stop the Shugenja cheese. See, when you wear armor that you aren't proficient in - it penalizes your attack rolls. Primary spellcasters, like Shugenja, don't make Attack Rolls (other people makes saves against their spells, and Save DCs aren't penalized by non-proficiency in armor). Since Shugenja are technically divine casters - they also don't worry about ASF - and thus go ahead and wear Great Armor all the time without proficiency. Feeding two birds with one crumb is good - and this actually solves a third problem by making Spell Failure chances for armor easier to conceptualize.

----

That's a start. If a Wizard 7/Rogue 7 were throwing around Acid Orbs that did 14 dice of damage (with potential sneak attack), with a save DC of 17 + Intelligence, and rolling d20 + 14 for spell penetration - he'd be a fairly viable character right out of the box.

but, it doesn't solve the following problems:

1> Higher Level Spells are a lot better than lower level spells. So much so, in fact, that the difference between a 17th level wizard and a 20th level wizard (three 9th level spells, two 8th level spells, and a 7th level spell), if expressed as six summon monster spells, is 120 rounds of Celestials casting spells on your behalf. Which is more clerical spellcasting than you get from the first 13 levels of Cleric. Thus, this doesn't even come close to fixing the Wizard/Cleric multiclass.

2> You still can't stab a sword and cast a spell in the same round. Your combat effectiveness, in a very real way, is not dictated by how many different things you can do - but by how good of a thing you can do. After all, each round you can generally only do one thing (especially in 3.5 - unless you have Shapechange, but as a multiclassed character you won't). Your ability to cast a Fireball is inherently non-synergistic with your ability to swing a sword - as you can't do both at the same time. For an extreme example, the Barbarian's Rage dovetails very nicely into the Fighter's Improved Trip bonus feat - but completely negates any of a Wizard's spellcasting abilities. So this still doesn't completely solve the spellcaster/warrior multiclass.

--

However, if you did all this and introduced the ability to cast spells while shooting people with arrows - the Archer/Wizard could be balanced. And if this was a basic thing that Fighter/Wizards could do - we wouldn't even need an Arcane Archer PrC to make it into a workable archetype.

-Frank
 

DrSpunj said:
I've asked you the same questions, Nail, but have yet to see too many suggestions from you throughout the 3 threads we all have going now! :)
oof! Low blow, bro!

My time's limited yesterday and today.

I'll post a bit of restructuring here, in Nifft's thread, since he's got such a great start on it.

FrankT: Thanks!
 
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Nail said:
oof! Low blow, bro!

:D Sorry about that, but I really wanted some ideas from you before the weekend hit.

Nail said:
FrankT: Thanks!

Yeah, thanks! I thought about what you wrote and kept much of it in mind while I worked on this, as well as comments from others in this thread and in Nifft's. I think I plagiarized something from just about everybody posting in all three threads (and Monte of course! ;))

Some random thoughts:
I really liked what Monte did with the Mageblade, so I included that mechanic in this write-up. It allows the AA to surpass (by only +1, but still, that's surpass! :)) a fighter-type of her level, but only with her chosen bow! With any other weapon (even another bow) she actually becomes worse compared to a fighter-type as she gains more AA levels because of the 3/4 BAB progression. I see the AA as a pure super-super-sub-specialist, so this really worked for me (YMMV).

I haven't seen anyone else address Arcane Spell Failure in their write-ups, and Monte addresses that as well in a very slick manner, IMO.

The enhancement bonus the AA gets right from the beginning is a full +1 greater than Greater Magic Weapon provides anyone else at every level (assuming you take ftr-type6/Wiz1 to meet the requirements and enter the class at 8th level). It also makes the chosen bow much tougher to sunder.

The Penetrate Arrow mechanic Nail came up with translates into a -25% chance to overcome Spell Resistance at AA 1, but that closes to just a -5% chance at AA 10 (again, assuming the fast track with ftr-type6/Wiz1; if you take two Wizard levels and only 5 fighter-type levels it's actually equal at AA 10!).

Anyway, here's what I came up with:


ARCANE ARCHER

The arcane archer is neither a master of combat nor of the arcane arts. By forgoing further general martial and arcane training and concentrating on the magical combination that can be achieved through archery, she wields powers unattainable by most. Arcane archers gain renown throughout entire kingdoms for their supernatural accuracy with a bow and their ability to imbue their arrows with magic. In a group, they can strike fear into an entire enemy army.
Hit Die: d6

REQUIREMENTS
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Skills: Concentration 3 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 3 ranks.
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any bow).
Spells: Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.

CLASS SKILLS
The arcane archer’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Code:
[u]Lvl  BAB Fort Ref Will  Spellcasting  Special Abilities[/u]
 1   +0   +0   +2   +2       --       Mehta +3
 2   +1   +0   +3   +3    +1 Level    Imbue Arrow
 3   +2   +1   +3   +3       --       Penetrating Arrow
 4   +3   +1   +4   +4    +1 Level    Enhance mehta (+1 bonus)
 5   +3   +1   +4   +4       --       Mehta +4, Greater Imbue Arrow
 6   +4   +2   +5   +5    +1 Level    Call mehta (standard action)
 7   +5   +2   +5   +5       --       Enhance mehta (+1 bonus)
 8   +6   +2   +6   +6    +1 Level    Combined casting
 9   +6   +3   +6   +6       --       Mehta +5, Call mehta (free action)
10   +7   +3   +7   +7    +1 Level    Enhance mehta (+1 or +2 bonus)
CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
An arcane archer is proficient with all simple weapons, all bows (not crossbows), light armor, medium armor and shields.

Spells per Day: When a new arcane archer level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an arcane archer, she must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

Mehta (Su): The arcane archer selects a bow that she is proficient with and performs a daylong ceremony to make it her key weapon, also called a “mehta”. An arcane archer can have only one mehta, and the mehta must be a physical weapon (not the creation of a spell), although it can be enhanced with magic. The mehta gains a +3 enhancement bonus, which functions only in the arcane archer’s hands and does not stack with any existing enhancement bonus the weapon has (only the highest enhancement bonus applies). At 5th and 9th levels this bonus increases by +1 (maximum +5). The weapon does not have to be masterwork to use it as an mehta, but if the arcane archer ever wants to enhance it with weapon special abilities, such as Flaming or Seeking, it must be masterwork. This ability provides enough of an enhancement bonus to give the bow special abilities without first giving it at least a +1 enhancement bonus using the normal item creation rules.
The mehta gains a small modicum of sentience in the ceremony. It has a very basic empathic link with the arcane archer, so the character always knows where the weapon is (distance & direction). The mehta serves as a special focus for all the arcane archer’s arcane spells. As long as it remains in her hands, her spells have no somatic components (and therefore she doesn’t suffer Arcane Spell Failure chances in armor).
An arcane archer can create a new mehta by performing the ceremony again, but this results in the destruction of the previous mehta, if it still exists.

Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 2nd level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place an arcane area spell upon an arrow. When the arrow is fired, the spell’s area is centered on (or originates from) where the arrow lands, even if the spell could normally be centered only on the caster. This ability allows the archer to use the bow’s range rather than the spell’s range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted. If the spell has a directional component, the effect continues in the direction of the arrow’s flight (usually directly away from the archer).

Penetrating Arrow (Su): Starting at 3rd level, when using any of her Imbue Arrow abilities, an arcane archer may add her class level as a bonus to caster level checks when trying to overcome a target's Spell Resistance. This bonus stacks with caster levels gained as an arcane archer, as well as with feats like Spell Penetration.

Enhance Mehta (Su): Beginning at 4th level, an arcane archer can further enhance her mehta with another daylong ceremony. She may choose to add any Ranged Weapon Special Ability (appropriate for her mehta) with a +1 Base Price Modifier (see the DMG magic ranged weapons section). This ability becomes a permanent part of the arcane archer’s mehta enchantments and is fixed once chosen. Like the enhancement bonus on the mehta, this ability only functions in the arcane archer’s hands.
At 7th level she may choose another +1 Special Ability to her mehta, and at 10th level may choose either a third +1 Special Ability or a single +2 Special Ability. No ability may be chosen more than once (except Bane or similar abilities, whereupon a different foe or selection must be chosen each time). These abilities may be selectively suppressed as a free action by the Arcane Archer.
Note: the mehta’s enhancement bonus and special ability bonuses can’t total more than +10 (regardless of whether they are natural to the bow or from the arcane archer’s mehta abilities, or both). If this should occur the Special Ability selected at 10th level is effectively unavailable, then the 7th level and 4th level abilities, then a reduction in the mehta’s enhancement bonus in +1 increments, in that order, until the total is +10 or less.

Greater Imbue Arrow (Sp): At 5th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a touch attack or ranged touch arcane spell upon her arrow, though the arrow must hit normally to affect the target (it is not treated as a ranged touch attack but as a ranged attack which also delivers the touch spell). In all other respects, this ability functions the same as Imbue Arrow.

Call Mehta (Su): Starting at 6th level, the arcane archer can call her mehta to appear immediately in her hand as a standard action. The bow can be up to 10 miles per class level away, although if it is in someone else’s possession or in a locked room, she must make a caster power check (DC 25) to call it. Starting at 9th level, this call becomes a free action, usable once per round.

Combined Casting (Sp): Beginning at 8th level, as a full-round action, the arcane archer may both cast a spell (with a casting time of 1 standard action) and use a standard attack action with the bow. This ability may not be used with the Imbue Arrow or Greater Imbue Arrow abilities. Both of these provoke Attacks of Opportunity as normal, though the spell can be cast defensively.


So, whaddy'all think?
 
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DrSpunj said:
So, whaddy'all think?

Hmm.. very interesting! It seems to work pretty well, I don't have any problem with it..

Some analysis:

Taking it as soon as possible means that it could be taken at 8th level. If we aim for maximal combat effectiveness, we'd go for clvl 1 = wizard, clvl 2-7, 18-20 = fighter. You'd have the spellcasting ability of a 6th lvl arcane caster (but with no chance of spell failure), and with your bow, you'd have a net attack of +22 (8 from ftr levels, 7 from AA levels, 5 from mehta, 1 from wpn focus, and 1 from improved wpn focus (taken at 20th lvl)). With 3 attacks per round + feats.

If we go for maximal arcane capability, we'd do clvl 1,2 = ftr, clvl 3-10 = wiz, and clvl 11-20 as AA. Spellcasting ability at clvl 20 would be the same as a 14th lvl caster, but your net attack would be only +19 (2 from ftr levels, 4 from wizard level, 7 from AA levels, 5 from mehta, and 1 from weapon focus), and you wouldn't be able to choose the PrC until 11th level. Also with 3 attacks per round + feats.

If we compare it to a 20th level fighter, and if we assume a +5 bow, he'd obviously have no arcane capability or any of the AA abilities, but he'd have an attack of 27 (20 from ftr levels, 1 from wpn focus, 1 from improved wpn focus, 5 from magical bow), and 4 attacks per round + feats, as well as +4 damage from wpn spec and improved weapon spec.

I'd say it looks pretty balanced to me.
 

On the Mehta:

First of all, this seems to be a handy way to create magic bows with nasty abilities and no enhancement bonuses. Not a huge deal for the character in question - but if any of the other characters in the party are also Archers it could lead to some hilarity.

Secondly, this seems to make the Archer very dependent upon Craft Magic Arms and Armor - but the class doesn't actually require or allow you to qualify for this feat in any reasonable time frame.

Thirdly, Penetration Arrow is either too little or too much, depending upon how things work out. You see, the character gains 15 levels of Spell Penetration in 10 levels. If this is applied to a 12th level Wizard - they get to 20th level with a spell penetration level of 24. Alternately, if it goes on a Warrior 6/Wizard 1 they get to level 17 and still only have a penetration level of 16 - which is still under par. Also, this ability is not a spell-like ability. I mean, Spell-like abilities provoke attacks of opportunity and stuff. This is a continuous supernatural ability.

Fourth, Having the Mehta cap out at +5 essentially makes the power worthless. I mean, the minimum level to get the second increase is 16th. How many people are going to get to 16th level without being able to simply get their friend to cast GMW for +4 on their favored bow?

---

Fundamentally you are looking at trying to tie the abilities to the level you expect people to take the class. That's an unrealistic goal because you simply do not know what level people are going to walk into the class - and many people will mix it with other classes (core and prestige) and some people will be more heavily focused on wizarding and others less.

The point is: if you find yourself doing something awkward like "+3 and +1 more every four levels" - you should probably just set it to character level and get it over with. You should do the same thing with the Arrow Penetration. Having the entire character level count for spell penetration is something which should be done for everyone - having it happen for this class is a good start.

And you should probably let them count their entire character level for item creation feats - and probably give out Craft Arms and Armor as a bonus feat early on.

-Frank
 

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