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3.5 Arcane Archer Rebuild
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<blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 1194125" data-attributes="member: 994"><p>Eh, don't sweat it. I'll print out a copy of our latest version and bring it to the next session to go over any fine points.</p><p> </p><p>Well, if you took Wizard levels to meet the AA prereqs you still <em>have</em> a spellbook to maintain for your spells, so that cost doesn't go away. If you took Sorcerer or Bard levels to meet the prereqs, then why would you get burdened with something like that by taking levels in AA?</p><p> </p><p>I'd say the cost (because it's nearly a one-time thing) is more similar to getting a Familiar or Animal Companion. The former costs 1 day & 100 gp, while the latter only costs a day. The 100 gp cost is a pain in the rear at 1st level, on your <strong>1st day</strong> of adventuring, but after that is essentially meaningless. It's the day part (like it was for Rowan) that can really throw a wrench into the party's adventuring plans.</p><p> </p><p>8th level is the earliest all the prereqs can be met, and according to DMG wealth guidelines an 8th level PC should have 27,000 gp. What kind of monetary cost do you think is worthwhile here? Because it's not going to be much of a hindrance for someone who talks his first AA level at 10th when they have 49,000 gp.</p><p> </p><p>That's why I like the way it's done with all the base classes. If you think a day is too short (since this IS a Prestige Class), you could make it a week or something. I just think that's going to be really painful when the AA's bow was taken or destroyed or whatever and he wants to get a new one. "Sorry guys, I'll catch up with you in a week or so. I have to go...meditate...for awhile. Try not to killed without me!"</p><p> </p><p>Well, to get that bow it "cost" the Ranger 1 level of an arcane spellcasting class. The least painful way to get that IMO is by taking a level of Bard. For that level his HD drops to a d6, he gets the same number of skill points but is forced to use 6 of them to meet the Knowledge (Arcana) prereq (and probably Concentration as even though its a class skill, I don't think most Rangers buy it up), his BAB drops by 1, he loses Fort save progression but picks up a bonus +1 to his Reflex save and a +2 to his Will save. He loses a level of Ranger abilities but picks up Bardic Songs and (assuming his Charisma is up to snuff, which isn't a safe assumption IMO) and the ability to cast a handful of cantrips. That's probably nearly a wash (as it should be) mechanically, maybe a touch on the good side, but may not be at all consistent with someone's character concept. A level of Wizard is about even to me while a level of Sorcerer is a touch on the bad side IMO.</p><p> </p><p>Still, I understand your point. Everyone else at that level should have no more than +2 enhancement bonuses under normal circumstances. Those are ~4,000 gp, not a huge chunk of 27,000 gp. OTOH, +3 enhancement bonuses are ~18,000 gp which is a far different story. How about 1/2 the value of the mehta is counted for purposes of character wealth?</p><p> </p><p>If you feel that the whole amount should be counted, then I think the Call ability needs to be a bit better as so many of the AA's abilities are tied to it. A Fighter of the same level is admittedly less effective when his +3 weapon is taken from him, but an AA is affected quite a bit more when his mehta disappears. If he is denied other equipment & gear equal to the full cost of the mehta on top of this then he's severely weakened until he gets his mehta back. A Fighter, OTOH, can borrow anyone else's bow and lose only a couple points of attack and/or damage. An AA can't even borrow an extra bow.</p><p> </p><p>If we go with full amount towards wealth then I think the Call ability should be something like 100' per level rather than Sight (or maybe Medium range? that is, 100 + 10'/level? EDIT: I kind of like that, actually).</p><p> </p><p>Doh! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /> Right. Originally I was thinking of the AA as more warrior than mage. As it's evolved I'm now swinging the other way (hence the d6 instead of d8). Anyway, Knowledge (Arcana) I'll add, like I did Concentration. I don't think Spellcraft is appropriate because AA's don't study general spellcasting, they just use magic in their own unique way. The other skills are on WotC's original skill list for the AA. By going down to 2 SPs/lvl I don't think the list needs to be altered much more.</p><p> </p><p>Well, you could. It "costs" you that 1 level of Wizard, though, which drops your HD by 2 steps to a d4; your skill points drop by 4 and the 2 you do get need to go towards Knowledge (Arcana) which isn't a class skill for Rangers (though Concentration is, but the points for this prereq you'd likely put towards other skills for most Rangers); your BAB drops by 1; you lose out on Fort & Reflex save progression but your Will save gets a +2 bump; your Ranger abilities stall for a level but you pick up Scribe Scroll (also useful for your Ranger spells), a familiar to keep your animal companion company, a boatload of cantrips and a few 1st level spells.</p><p> </p><p>Then, the level of AA has it's own "cost" to a straight Ranger. Your HD & skills both go down again, and you lose another BAB for <em>every other</em> <em>weapon</em> besides your mehta. Your Fort save is another level behind while your Reflex & Will saves get another boost. Your Ranger abilities are another level behind and your Wizard & Ranger spells don't advance either.</p><p> </p><p>Is a chosen +3 bow worth all that? Maybe. For someone interested in what the AA's all about I'd say most definitely. But for every Ranger out there? I don't think so. Those two levels (Wizard & AA) may get you a better bow but you lose a lot of general combat ability and...rangerness! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p> </p><p>Again, you could. Of course, to meet the BAB +6 prereq you couldn't take it before 13th level. While PBS & Precise Shot are helpful for ranged spells with attack rolls, I don't think most Wizards spend 2 of the 5 general feats they have at 12th level on them. Weapon Focus (Bow) requires proficiency which only Elves get (and notice I didn't require a racial prereq, I figure that's campaign specific) so that means any other Wizard would have to spend yet another feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency (bow). Quite a hefty price for a wizard starting out at level 1, obviously much less so if the campaign is starting at levels above 10th.</p><p> </p><p>I guess to see if something is "balanced" I look and see if the ability is so good, and the cost so minimal, that it's a no-brainer. Looking over the AA as we have it right now, I don't see that. Anyone who meets all the prereqs fits the mold of an AA, IMO. While the abilities they gain in doing so are not insignificant they aren't overwhelming either. Obviously YMMV, but you have to tell me that. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p>Thanks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DrSpunj, post: 1194125, member: 994"] Eh, don't sweat it. I'll print out a copy of our latest version and bring it to the next session to go over any fine points. Well, if you took Wizard levels to meet the AA prereqs you still [i]have[/i] a spellbook to maintain for your spells, so that cost doesn't go away. If you took Sorcerer or Bard levels to meet the prereqs, then why would you get burdened with something like that by taking levels in AA? I'd say the cost (because it's nearly a one-time thing) is more similar to getting a Familiar or Animal Companion. The former costs 1 day & 100 gp, while the latter only costs a day. The 100 gp cost is a pain in the rear at 1st level, on your [b]1st day[/b] of adventuring, but after that is essentially meaningless. It's the day part (like it was for Rowan) that can really throw a wrench into the party's adventuring plans. 8th level is the earliest all the prereqs can be met, and according to DMG wealth guidelines an 8th level PC should have 27,000 gp. What kind of monetary cost do you think is worthwhile here? Because it's not going to be much of a hindrance for someone who talks his first AA level at 10th when they have 49,000 gp. That's why I like the way it's done with all the base classes. If you think a day is too short (since this IS a Prestige Class), you could make it a week or something. I just think that's going to be really painful when the AA's bow was taken or destroyed or whatever and he wants to get a new one. "Sorry guys, I'll catch up with you in a week or so. I have to go...meditate...for awhile. Try not to killed without me!" Well, to get that bow it "cost" the Ranger 1 level of an arcane spellcasting class. The least painful way to get that IMO is by taking a level of Bard. For that level his HD drops to a d6, he gets the same number of skill points but is forced to use 6 of them to meet the Knowledge (Arcana) prereq (and probably Concentration as even though its a class skill, I don't think most Rangers buy it up), his BAB drops by 1, he loses Fort save progression but picks up a bonus +1 to his Reflex save and a +2 to his Will save. He loses a level of Ranger abilities but picks up Bardic Songs and (assuming his Charisma is up to snuff, which isn't a safe assumption IMO) and the ability to cast a handful of cantrips. That's probably nearly a wash (as it should be) mechanically, maybe a touch on the good side, but may not be at all consistent with someone's character concept. A level of Wizard is about even to me while a level of Sorcerer is a touch on the bad side IMO. Still, I understand your point. Everyone else at that level should have no more than +2 enhancement bonuses under normal circumstances. Those are ~4,000 gp, not a huge chunk of 27,000 gp. OTOH, +3 enhancement bonuses are ~18,000 gp which is a far different story. How about 1/2 the value of the mehta is counted for purposes of character wealth? If you feel that the whole amount should be counted, then I think the Call ability needs to be a bit better as so many of the AA's abilities are tied to it. A Fighter of the same level is admittedly less effective when his +3 weapon is taken from him, but an AA is affected quite a bit more when his mehta disappears. If he is denied other equipment & gear equal to the full cost of the mehta on top of this then he's severely weakened until he gets his mehta back. A Fighter, OTOH, can borrow anyone else's bow and lose only a couple points of attack and/or damage. An AA can't even borrow an extra bow. If we go with full amount towards wealth then I think the Call ability should be something like 100' per level rather than Sight (or maybe Medium range? that is, 100 + 10'/level? EDIT: I kind of like that, actually). Doh! :o Right. Originally I was thinking of the AA as more warrior than mage. As it's evolved I'm now swinging the other way (hence the d6 instead of d8). Anyway, Knowledge (Arcana) I'll add, like I did Concentration. I don't think Spellcraft is appropriate because AA's don't study general spellcasting, they just use magic in their own unique way. The other skills are on WotC's original skill list for the AA. By going down to 2 SPs/lvl I don't think the list needs to be altered much more. Well, you could. It "costs" you that 1 level of Wizard, though, which drops your HD by 2 steps to a d4; your skill points drop by 4 and the 2 you do get need to go towards Knowledge (Arcana) which isn't a class skill for Rangers (though Concentration is, but the points for this prereq you'd likely put towards other skills for most Rangers); your BAB drops by 1; you lose out on Fort & Reflex save progression but your Will save gets a +2 bump; your Ranger abilities stall for a level but you pick up Scribe Scroll (also useful for your Ranger spells), a familiar to keep your animal companion company, a boatload of cantrips and a few 1st level spells. Then, the level of AA has it's own "cost" to a straight Ranger. Your HD & skills both go down again, and you lose another BAB for [i]every other[/i] [i]weapon[/i] besides your mehta. Your Fort save is another level behind while your Reflex & Will saves get another boost. Your Ranger abilities are another level behind and your Wizard & Ranger spells don't advance either. Is a chosen +3 bow worth all that? Maybe. For someone interested in what the AA's all about I'd say most definitely. But for every Ranger out there? I don't think so. Those two levels (Wizard & AA) may get you a better bow but you lose a lot of general combat ability and...rangerness! ;) Again, you could. Of course, to meet the BAB +6 prereq you couldn't take it before 13th level. While PBS & Precise Shot are helpful for ranged spells with attack rolls, I don't think most Wizards spend 2 of the 5 general feats they have at 12th level on them. Weapon Focus (Bow) requires proficiency which only Elves get (and notice I didn't require a racial prereq, I figure that's campaign specific) so that means any other Wizard would have to spend yet another feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency (bow). Quite a hefty price for a wizard starting out at level 1, obviously much less so if the campaign is starting at levels above 10th. I guess to see if something is "balanced" I look and see if the ability is so good, and the cost so minimal, that it's a no-brainer. Looking over the AA as we have it right now, I don't see that. Anyone who meets all the prereqs fits the mold of an AA, IMO. While the abilities they gain in doing so are not insignificant they aren't overwhelming either. Obviously YMMV, but you have to tell me that. :) Thanks. [/QUOTE]
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