D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

I always thought the spiekd gauntlet AOO scenario depended on quick draw as a feat. Full attack, with quick draw switch to spiked gauntlet at the ready as a free aciton, you now threaten an area. So unless someone readied an action to do there AoO threatenable action wfor while you shot it works.

Also I think it would be legitimate to say the spiked gauntlet can be switched to as a free action without the quick draw feat, since its always on your hand.
 
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Shard O'Glase said:
I always thought the spiekd gauntlet AOO scenario depended on quick draw as a feat. Full attack, with quick draw switch to spiked gauntlet at the ready as a free aciton, you now threaten an area. So unless someone readied an action to do there AoO threatenable action wfor while you shot it works.

Also I think it would be legitimate to say the spiked gauntlet can be switched to as a free action without the quick draw feat, since its always on your hand.

First, the DM is always free to place limits on the number of free actions you can undertake in a round. You've already taken two or three free actions by drawing arrows and loading them. You probably took a free action to draw your bow (or "switch from using the spiked gauntlet to the bow"). At this point, you seem to be pushing the bounds of the number of free actions one can take.

Further, switching back and forth between weapons like that is somewhat off kilter. It assumes that you have an action, stop doing it, and wait for others to take their action. That is what happens in game terms (for convenience's sake), but seems off kilter with respect to what the rules are intended to reflect. Flipping back and forth constantly pushes the limits of metagaming.

Sure, the gauntlet is "always on your hand", but trying to use it while concentrating on using a bow (a weapon that requires two hands to use) isn't supported by the rules.

Finally, remember what the AoO we are talkiing about and that you are trying to make is intended to prevent: someone with a reach weapon from disarming or sundering your bow. A spiked gauntlet isn't going to be very valuable at making an AoO against someone using a reach weapon. Plus, by "unarming" the bow, you make it that much more vulnerable to being sundered or disarmed (effectively making it a non-weapon object held in one hand, so you can use the "strike an object" rules and ignore bonuses for holding it in two hands). Even if you could do the spiked gauntlet trick, you have effectively traded a 1d4 AoO for making your primary attack mode that much more vulnerable to being destroyed or taken. Not a smart trade-off.
 
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Darklone said:
Some of these archer-melee discussions show that the perception of balance is often flawed by rule misinterpretations such as using a spiked gauntlet for AoOs while shooting with a bow.

What do you guys think will be changed in 3.5 for archers?

According to the FAQ, that may not be a rules misinterpetation.

According to the FAQ, taking your hand off of a two-handed weapon is a free action. (I'm at work, so I can't give the exact page number in the FAQ, but it's a question abouting using a spiked guantles to threaten 5' around you while wielding a polearm with reach).

So take your full attack with the bow, then as a free action remove your hand with the spiked guantlet from the bow. Now you threaten with the guantlet. At the beginning of your next turn, use a free action to grasp the bow and take your full attack action.

I don't think this is what was intended, but it seems technically allowed, due to the way other weapons are treated.

Same basic reasoning with a cleric using a two-handed weapon and casting spells: free action (remove hand), cast spell, free action (grasp weapon again), now you threaten.
 

Storm Raven said:

First, the DM is always free to place limits on the number of free actions you can undertake in a round. You've already taken two or three free actions by drawing arrows and loading them.


Yes, and No. The DM can limit free actions but drawing arrows is not a free action; it's part of the full action to fire the bow.


Sure, the gauntlet is "always on your hand", but trying to use it while concentrating on using a bow (a weapon that requires two hands to use) isn't supported by the rules.


The rules say nothing about not being able to use a bow while wearing armor. All forms of plate armor have gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are little different. Now logic may say that you can't be a very good archer while wearing a pair of spiked gauntlets, but the rules do not.

Personally, I allow archers to wear a spiked gauntlet on their bow-holding hand. Switching weapons really amounts to holding the bow with the other hand. It's not exactly the bestest fighting style in the world, but gives you the chance to fight back when cornered.


Finally, remember what the AoO we are talkiing about and that you are trying to make is intended to prevent: someone with a reach weapon from disarming or sundering your bow. A spiked gauntlet isn't going to be very valuable at making an AoO against someone using a reach weapon.


Of course, its better than just standing there since you can't take AoO's with a bow.


Plus, by "unarming" the bow, you make it that much more vulnerable to being sundered or disarmed (effectively making it a non-weapon object held in one hand, so you can use the "strike an object" rules and ignore bonuses for holding it in two hands).

Okay, if it was a weapon before, it's a weapon now that it's in the off-hand. Does a sword become an object when held in the "wrong" hand? Not that it matters, to me a bow isn't a weapon. Bows are launchers. Bows aren't designed to be abused by slamming them into something. Heck, Arrows, arrows are disposable weapons since they can only do it once before being destroyed.

Besides, you don't "hold" a bow in both hands. You use both hands to fire a bow, but it's only being held by one hand so there's no way I'd give the "two-handed weapon" defense to disarm anyway.
 

Having been at the receiving end of a whacked-out archer build (I was DM) with the aforesaid character dishing out 300+ points of damage per round, I will take up the case that archery is clearly more powerful than melee.

First of all, I will deal quickly with Kai Lord's assertion that (e.g.) Bracers of Archery would be eschewed as a 'crutch'. Nonsense. PCs are likely to be 'career' soldiers, particularly high-level fighters. They are going, generally, to rely on any and every assistance that they can. A few eccentrics may eschew Bracers of Archery or magic bows, but these few are few for the simple reason that they usually end up dead. When you are fighting *for your life* on a regular basis, chances are that you will take every advantage you can. Just as modern-day snipers would be foolish to not use the most advanced targeting system they can get their hands on, DnD archers would be foolish to ignore any magical item that they can find. Better living in the supposed 'shame' of using a crutch (though I would hardly think it thus!) than to be killed.

As for the damage comparison itself, I will explain why archers will tend to outshine fighters at almost any level, low, mid or high.

General Points:
Archers can use bucklers. This gives them a significant (by high-level) AC bonus over the melee fighters.
Archers typically wear light armour. This gives them a greater distance, meaning that they can easily use skirmishing tactics against melee fighters- particularly if they have Manyshot.
Archers have long-range (duh). They can avoid melee combat with slow tank monsters (e.g. golems) that you do not want to engage in melee with. Similarly, they can take out enemy spellcasters at range.
Collateral utility. Because archers tend to have better Dex, they will have better initiative and Reflex saves than meleeists. For his buffed Str, the meleeist only really gets a better carrying capacity, which goes obsolete at high levels due to Bags of Holding.

LOW LEVELS: With the melee fighter generally getting one attack/round, Rapid Shot rules supreme at the low levels. Only at the very lowest levels will the melee fighter tend to be better than the archer (levels 1/2) and at these levels, melee combat is so dangerous as to be avoided. By level 3, with mighty bows and Magic Weapon starts becoming common and the tide turns. At level 4, the archer can get much more use out of Weapon Specialisation than the meleeist by virtue of having twice as many attacks.

MID LEVELS: The mid-levels hold an interesting turn. By the mid-levels, prestige classes begin to appear. With the Order of the Bow Initiate, the archer becomes phenomenally powerful. Close Combat Shot takes out of their major disadvantages and ranged sneak attack means that their initiative advantage translates into real damage. The fighter will take, let us assume, the Weapon Master. With hefty prerequisites, he will have to delay entry or squeeze himself through the lower levels- we will assume he delays entry. GMW becomes to show up a significant difference by levels 6-9, with the archers gaining +2 to hit and +2 to damage over the fighter. The +2 to hit negates the RS penalty, and the +2 damage per attack swings damage-dealing capacity in the archer's favour. The rise of magical ascendancy through mid levels means that ranged attacks become vital, as does the plethora of high-damage short-ranged opponents in the mid-CRs and the increased frequency of flying opponents.

HIGH LEVELS: At the higher levels, Rapid Shot becomes less of a factor, but with the number of enemy hit points rising, Cleave and Great Cleave become almost useless. However, GMW becomes a huge area of dichotomy, especially if elemental weapons are used. A +1 bow with three elemental abilities with a +1 arrow with three elemental abilities, both enhanced to +5 using GMW, have effectively a +5 to hit and +2.5+3d6 damage lead over a +1 greatsword with three elemental abilities enhanced to +5 using GMW. In order to equalise on damage alone, the fighter needs to have a Strength score of no less than 16 points greater than the archer. Even if equalised per hit, he still receives one fewer hit. Meanwhile, the Order of the Bow Initiate has come to fruition. Within 30', not only can the OotBI gain PBS he can add his Wisdom modifier- a nice empowered buff can often guarantee another +4 to hit, ensuring even his fifth attack has a reasonable chance against most opponents. Ranged sneak attack becomes a major factor, given the initiative dichotomy between archers and meleeists. The Weapon Master has some nice abilities, but its incremental utility for the meleeist cannot match that of the OotBI for the archer. Finally, the utility of long-range becomes paramount- most NPCs and significant numbers of monsters have flying capabilities, wizards can end battles with one spell and pure melee monsters dish out ridiculous quantities of damage (e.g. the tarrasque). Indeed, against almost any type of high-level opponent, the archer fares better than the meleeist save specific anti-archer builds.

At nearly every level, the archer character is of greater mechanical power than the melee fighter. The only time that the melee fighter can hope to match the archer is at the lowest levels- beyond that, he is rapidly made redundant.
 

The DM can limit free actions but drawing arrows is not a free action; it's part of the full action to fire the bow.

Thank you! I don't know where people get that drawing an arrow is anything but the standard use of the bow. Some DMs even require the PC to have the Quick Draw feat if they want to be able to fire more than one arrow in a round. Very strange. Drawing the arrow if part of the firing action. It's not a move equivalent action, nor even a free action.

This thread has some interesting discussion. I'd comment on more of it, but quite frankly, I don't have that kind of patience! :)
 

Al,

It seems that, based on your analysis, the difference in power seems to come down to 2 things: prestige classes and magic. Because of that, I would suggest that the problems therefore lie in the magical abilites and the prestige classes available to archers, not archery as a whole.

Example - if you do not allow arrow and bow bonuses to stack, but instead make them overlap, you negate a great deal of the inequity between the archer and the melee fighter.
 

kigmatzomat said:
Yes, and No. The DM can limit free actions but drawing arrows is not a free action; it's part of the full action to fire the bow.


No, reloading the bow is a free action.

The rules say nothing about not being able to use a bow while wearing armor. All forms of plate armor have gauntlets and spiked gauntlets are little different. Now logic may say that you can't be a very good archer while wearing a pair of spiked gauntlets, but the rules do not.

No, I'm not saying you can't wear them. I'm saying you cannot use them as weapons while you are using a bow.

Personally, I allow archers to wear a spiked gauntlet on their bow-holding hand. Switching weapons really amounts to holding the bow with the other hand. It's not exactly the bestest fighting style in the world, but gives you the chance to fight back when cornered.

I consider this an abuse of free actions.

Of course, its better than just standing there since you can't take AoO's with a bow.

Not much better.

Okay, if it was a weapon before, it's a weapon now that it's in the off-hand. Does a sword become an object when held in the "wrong" hand? Not that it matters, to me a bow isn't a weapon. Bows are launchers. Bows aren't designed to be abused by slamming them into something. Heck, Arrows, arrows are disposable weapons since they can only do it once before being destroyed.

But, under the sage's interpretation it wasn't a weapon before. When you strike a bow (according to the sage), you don't use the normal Sunder and Disarm rules, you use the Strike a Held Object rules. I was pointing out that even if you used the rules for striking weapons when a bow is being used as a weapon (contrary to the sage's advice), you would certainly use the Strike a Held Object rules when it is not being used as a weapon.

Besides, you don't "hold" a bow in both hands. You use both hands to fire a bow, but it's only being held by one hand so there's no way I'd give the "two-handed weapon" defense to disarm anyway.

I wouldn't either. I wouldn't allow the magical bonuses from Bracers of Archery, or arrows to be factored in, and I would apply the -4 nonproficiency penalty, and would require the archer use his Strength rather than his Dexterity bonus in the opposed roll. I also would not allow him to use any bonuses from Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus or anything similar, as those apply to the use of the bow as a ranged weapon.

I think the archer is going to lose his bow.
 
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Al said:
Having been at the receiving end of a whacked-out archer build (I was DM) with the aforesaid character dishing out 300+ points of damage per round, I will take up the case that archery is clearly more powerful than melee.


Your case is wanting.

General Points:
Archers can use bucklers. This gives them a significant (by high-level) AC bonus over the melee fighters.

Using a buckler causes an archer to suffer an attack penalty. Two handed weapon fighters can use bucklers as well, so there is no net benfit gained by the archer here.

Archers typically wear light armour. This gives them a greater distance, meaning that they can easily use skirmishing tactics against melee fighters- particularly if they have Manyshot.
Archers have long-range (duh). They can avoid melee combat with slow tank monsters (e.g. golems) that you do not want to engage in melee with.

Many melee fighters wear light armor as well, especially fighters who focus on things like Combat Reflexes. Plus, at high levels, most individuals should have more than enough armor modifications (like using Mithril armor) and magic items to overcome mobility problems.

Similarly, they can take out enemy spellcasters at range.

Getting into a ranged duel with a spellcaster is almost always suicide for an archer. Spellcasters simply have too many ways to avoid being targeted by an archer, or to defend themselves against his attacks, and their retaliatory attacks are usually much more devastating.

Collateral utility. Because archers tend to have better Dex, they will have better initiative and Reflex saves than meleeists. For his buffed Str, the meleeist only really gets a better carrying capacity, which goes obsolete at high levels due to Bags of Holding.

The meleeist also gets lots more damage dealing capability, and the ability to wear heavier equipment without being slowed (once you get to things like Mithril armor).

LOW LEVELS: With the melee fighter generally getting one attack/round, Rapid Shot rules supreme at the low levels. Only at the very lowest levels will the melee fighter tend to be better than the archer (levels 1/2) and at these levels, melee combat is so dangerous as to be avoided.

Cleave at this level frequently gives the melee combatant an extra attack. This is also where Combat Reflexes can be heavily exploited.

By level 3, with mighty bows and Magic Weapon starts becoming common and the tide turns.

Magic Weapon cannot be used on ammunition. Check your rules.

At level 4, the archer can get much more use out of Weapon Specialisation than the meleeist by virtue of having twice as many attacks.

Only within 30 feet, which is more than close enough for the melee opponents to close and attack him, grapple him (no AoO), disarm him (no AoO, crappy opposed roll for the archer), or sunder his bow (no AoO, crappy opposed roll, easy to chop up wooden weapon, goodbye expensive Strength bow).

MID LEVELS: The mid-levels hold an interesting turn. By the mid-levels, prestige classes begin to appear. With the Order of the Bow Initiate, the archer becomes phenomenally powerful. Close Combat Shot takes out of their major disadvantages and ranged sneak attack means that their initiative advantage translates into real damage.


Ranged sneak attack is a minor advantage, since it can't be used for flanking and is limited to 30 feet, placing the archer well within retaliatory range. Close Combat shot doesn't make an archer any less vulnerable to having his bow sundered or disarmed. He is still nonproficient with it as a melee weapon, he just doesn't draw an AoO for using it in melee.

The fighter will take, let us assume, the Weapon Master. With hefty prerequisites, he will have to delay entry or squeeze himself through the lower levels- we will assume he delays entry.

Let's assume the fighter takes a difficult and not very good PrC? Nice straw man there. The fighter can get significant benefit out of just multiclassing to barbarian, or going with a more useful PrC, like the Tempest, or the Master of Chains.

GMW becomes to show up a significant difference by levels 6-9, with the archers gaining +2 to hit and +2 to damage over the fighter. The +2 to hit negates the RS penalty, and the +2 damage per attack swings damage-dealing capacity in the archer's favour.

Only if you assume the melee fighter is not gaining similar bonuses through his magical weaponry and the use of GMW. At this point, the archer has to worry about negating the Rapid Shot penalty, while the melee fighter is adding to his unadjusted BAB with magic. Plus, GMW gives him the opportunity to add something like an elemental attribute to his weapon without losing magical plusses compared to the archer (since GMW makes his +1 Flaming Glaive a +2 Flaming Glaive just fine).

The rise of magical ascendancy through mid levels means that ranged attacks become vital, as does the plethora of high-damage short-ranged opponents in the mid-CRs and the increased frequency of flying opponents.

The rise of magical ascendancy makes controlling the battlefield more improtant, and archers don't have that ability. High damage, short ranged opponents? That is DM style more than anything else. Flying opponents? Better taken out by a melee fighter with Fly cast on him any day.

HIGH LEVELS: At the higher levels, Rapid Shot becomes less of a factor, but with the number of enemy hit points rising, Cleave and Great Cleave become almost useless.


Cleave is always useful. If you are fighting opponents with 100 hit points each, and you deal out, one average 60 hit points of damage per round (not even hard for even a mid level melee fighter), you are going to get an additional attack every other round, and your attacks will do more damage on a per attack basis, making that extra attack quite valuable.

However, GMW becomes a huge area of dichotomy, especially if elemental weapons are used. A +1 bow with three elemental abilities with a +1 arrow with three elemental abilities, both enhanced to +5 using GMW, have effectively a +5 to hit and +2.5+3d6 damage lead over a +1 greatsword with three elemental abilities enhanced to +5 using GMW.

Using up an additional spell slot for the archer. And an additional +4 magic weapon. Yep, giving the archer more resources is certain to make him look good. Of course, it means your analysis is crap, but you've got a nice straw man going there anyway.

Plus, which three elemental abilities are you going to stack with three other elemental abilities? I can only come up with four (flaming, frost, shocking and corrosive). You can't have a flaming bow and a flaming arrow and have it stack, like qualities do not stack, sorry.

Other than the fact that you have given the archer several throusand gold pieces worth of extra equipment, used an extra buff spell to bump him up, and gotten the rules wrong, your analysis holds up.

In order to equalise on damage alone, the fighter needs to have a Strength score of no less than 16 points greater than the archer.

Not altogether an uncommon occurence. Melee fighters with Strength scores in the high 30s are not that unusual at high levels.

Even if equalised per hit, he still receives one fewer hit. Meanwhile, the Order of the Bow Initiate has come to fruition. Within 30', not only can the OotBI gain PBS he can add his Wisdom modifier- a nice empowered buff can often guarantee another +4 to hit, ensuring even his fifth attack has a reasonable chance against most opponents.

Umm, do all of your archers have an additional 18 they can blow on Wisdom? You've got stats committed to high Dexterity, high Strength, and likely high Constitution, and you can afford an 18 Wisdom? or are you just assuming that you can add on several thousand more gold pieces worth of equipment to the archer with nothing added to the fighter?

Ranged sneak attack becomes a major factor, given the initiative dichotomy between archers and meleeists. The Weapon Master has some nice abilities, but its incremental utility for the meleeist cannot match that of the OotBI for the archer.

Ranged sneak attack remains a minor factor, as increasing numbers of opponents are immune to sneak attack damage.

Finally, the utility of long-range becomes paramount- most NPCs and significant numbers of monsters have flying capabilities, wizards can end battles with one spell and pure melee monsters dish out ridiculous quantities of damage (e.g. the tarrasque). Indeed, against almost any type of high-level opponent, the archer fares better than the meleeist save specific anti-archer builds.


With the tens of thousands of gold pieces he has saved over the archer, the melee guy can afford boots of flying and other mobility based magic items. This makes your "flying opponents" argument somewhat moot. He can also afford a +5 cloak of resistance, making him much better at saves than your archer.

Once you actually equalize their equipment cost to a reaosnable level, the archer comes off looking not so powerful.

At nearly every level, the archer character is of greater mechanical power than the melee fighter. The only time that the melee fighter can hope to match the archer is at the lowest levels- beyond that, he is rapidly made redundant.

Only if you give the archer several thousand gold pieces worth of extra equipment, buff him up with spells more, and get the rules wrong. Plus you need to have opponents who don't attack the archer's main weakness (the fact that it is ridiculously easy to get the bow out of his hands). Once you do all those things, sure, an archer looks pretty good.
 


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