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D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Assassin prestige class

Li Shenron

Legend
Sorry if it has been asked before. What does this actually mean?

The assassin's spell list appears below. An assassin casts spells just as a bard does.

Why does the text says "as a Bard" instead of "as a Sorcerer" or instead simply saying that it casts spontaneously?

In particular, does that imply no ASF in light armor?
Does that imply that he cannot use Silent Spell?
They are both quite important.

Beside those 2, I cannot think of any other difference between bardic and sorcerous spellcasting, beside obviously the different spells/day, spells known and spell list tables, which are all different from the Assassin's ones.
 

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I hadn't actually noticed that, and I assumed that it was just a matter of them having more spells known than castable (like bards do), but in retrospect it seems that the element of most significance is the bard casting in light armour... so that is what I'd go for as the intention.

Cheers
 


What makes this unclear is that:

1) if it says "like Bards" then I would suppose it's the same in every aspect of spellcasting unless specifically said here, and what's explicitly different is (a) Int instead of Cha, (b) the spell list, (c) spells/day and (d) known spells per level

2) the "no ASF in light armor" is not mentioned for the Assassin, but it's also the ONLY real difference between Bards and Sorcerers; anyway in the Bard's class description it is not in the "spells" section but under the "proficiencies" section

3) the fact that Bards spells cannot be Silent is under the feat Silent Spell, therefore I tend to say that it's a feature of the feat - which doesn't mention Assassins

It is clear that those 2 abilities are very important for an Assassin. Which Assassin wouldn't like to Silence his spells when performing a murder? They are also proficient with the same kind of armors as bards, therefore it may seem appropriate that they have the same ASF ability, while Sorcerers/Wizards aren't proficient with any...
 

Assassins:

Use Int for their casting stat.
Are spontaneous arcane spellcasters that can know a limited number of spells.
Ignore ASF for light armor.
Have caster level equal to their Assassin class level.
Are not subject to the 'cannot be cast Silent' limitation that Bard spells are.


as per a cs email I sent in a ways back asking the same question.
 

The relevant SRD sections, emphasis mine.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When Table: Bard Spells Known indicates that the bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.
The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.)
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

The ability to cast spells without ASF in light armor is part of the bards Weapon and Armor Proficiency, not their Spellcasting ability. Consequently, assassins do not got that ability.

The ability to swap out known spells for other spells is part of the bards Spellcasting ability. Assassins also have the ability to swap out spells. Note that this occurs at different levels than with a sorcerer, and is why the distiction between "as a sorcerer" and "as a bard" is significant (thought not all that significant).
 
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Deset Gled said:
The ability to cast spells without ASF in light armor is part of the bards Weapon and Armor Proficiency, not their Spellcasting ability. Consequently, assassins do not got that ability.

That's the point "against" :)

The point "pro" is... why did they say "cast spells as Bard" instead of the much more common "cast spells as Sorcerer" (I have never seen Bard used as reference anywhere else), or even better just not saying anything?

I wouldn't mind about swapping spells, that's specifically written out how it works for an Assassin. Incidentally it is just as a Bard, but it's written again, so why bothered with saying that they "cast as Bard" again?

[How do we ask the sage? Does anyone have an email address reference?]
 

Li Shenron said:
The point "pro" is... why did they say "cast spells as Bard" instead of the much more common "cast spells as Sorcerer" (I have never seen Bard used as reference anywhere else), or even better just not saying anything?

It's a standard practice when writing a PrC that has it's own spellcasting progression to add the line "casts spells just as a xxx". It is a redundancy, but it's a standard one. The best reason I can think of for them to do it is because the Magic section of the PHB is specifically written for the main core casting classes, and they wanted to be clear that the same rules for magic and spells applied to the PrCs as well.

As to the question "why did they choose bard instead of sorcerer," an equally valid question would be to ask "why not the bard instead of sorcerer?"
 

I just notices that the Battle Sorcerer variant in UA has proficiency with Light Armors and in fact doesn't suffer ASF while wearing light armors. Is it just a coincidence? :)

I know that it may sound just like I want to stretch the rules to get an advantage for my PC... but I am really trying to understand what makes sense here.

In 3.5 there are no more class abilities that contradict each other IIRC, for example Rangers don't get Medium Armor prof anymore to represent the fact that if they used medium armors they would lose the bonus feats. In 3.0 it was basically a choice between using medium armors and using the feats, but it looks to me that they changed it because to get 2 class features which you cannot use both doesn't feel the same as getting to choose between 2 features (like choosing between 2 feats). That's why the 3.5 Bard also was updated, although they are still prof with shields :confused: .

It would make sense that if all Bards/Rangers/Assassin learn how to use light armor it's because it doesn't hamper their spells/abilities, and they don't all learn to use other armor which instead screw up their own features.
 

Simple answer: it says "as a Bard" because that way nobody would think that all the assassins suddenly (switching from 3.0 to 3.5) gained a dragon ancestor ;)


Li Shenron said:
It would make sense that if all Bards/Rangers/Assassin learn how to use light armor it's because it doesn't hamper their spells/abilities, and they don't all learn to use other armor which instead screw up their own features.
Of course the Ranger could wear heavy armor and still doesn't need to worry about spell failure...
 

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