D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Attacking Your Own Square

[Laptopdude]

I'm about to DM my first session (wish me luck ), which includes rats. Since they are tiny creatures they have to enter the opponent's square to attack. After some reading, I still have two questions: (1) Can you make a ranged attack into your own square, and (2) Can an ally make a melee and/or ranged attack against a rat occupying your square?

Thanks for the help!

--Laptopdude--

 

[Dandu]

Yes.

 

[radmod]

1) It would seem the answer is yes, though I'll let someone else provide the definitive word. Do remember though, if you occupy the same space you DO provoke an AoO if you range attack.
2) Yes, at the standard -4 to hit to avoid hitting an ally.

You probably know this but look at p.149 of the PH. Also, please be aware that there is a difference between individual rats and a rat swarm.

 

[Nebten]

In line with radmod's answers:

1) There is no AoO if creature doesn't have a threat range, such as tiny creatures. So fire away

2) There is no penality for a melee attack. There is a -4 if you don't have Precise Shot. If you wanted to be really mean, you could give an additional -4 for the person in the square providing cover for the rats if the ranged attacker not adjacent to the square. I wouldn't recommend it since the person has now a -8 to their attack in their first adventure.

On a side note, are these a swarm of rats? I would highly recommend not using a swarm of rats against a 1st level party right out the gate. They are hard to kill with the basic weapons the party may have and they do auto-damage which could result in a TPK. Hell, I almost TPK'ed a level 3 party with a swarm of bats.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1) There is no AoO if creature doesn't have a threat range, such as tiny creatures. So fire away

I disagree. If they can attack you from within your own square, then as far as I'm concerned, they "threaten" that square, even if they have a reach of "Zero."

I also don't think I like the RAW here... I think in melee, the rat(s) should be getting a +4 cover bonus to AC, and the ranged penalty should be stiffer than firing into melee but not as bad as firing into a grapple. *shrug* probably not a common enough occurance to matter.

 

[frankthedm]

Now is everyone absolutely sure a tiny creature gets to REMAIN in the occupied square after its turn is over? I thought this was the case, but after this thread about the same case in the similarly worded Pathfinder ruleset, I'm not so sure. Here is an older thread on the matter too.


Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures
Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2½ feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

 

[Dandu]

I'd say they can stay in the square.

Course, that's based on my experience trying to stomp on small things in real life.

 

[HoboGod]

I'm guessing those threads deal mostly with the "accidentally ending your turn in an occupied square" rule. I imagine that only applies when you do, in fact, end in the square by accident and not on purpose or as part of a game mechanic. If that were the case, how would one explain grappling and bull rush which have specific guidelines for characters occupying the same square?

 

[radmod]

Now is everyone absolutely sure a tiny creature gets to REMAIN in the occupied square after its turn is over? I thought this was the case, but after this thread about the same case in the similarly worded Pathfinder ruleset, I'm not so sure. Here is an older thread on the matter too.

Yeah, Frank, you're right. I meant to mention this earlier but forgot.

Per PH, p. 128:
"A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
Yet technically, on the same page (above it):
"You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless"

However, as a DM I would ignore the second part in this case, or rather choose to think "move into" implies "can end" as it seems more correct. Likewise, there is, I believe, no technical limitation on the weapon used on your space. However, I wouldn't allow a PC to use a two-handed sword on a rat in his space. Likewise, if the rat were actually on the PC at the time (dropped from the ceiling, etc.) the PC would have to take a grapple action to get it off (knock it off, grab it and throw, use a dagger, etc.).

As to the AoO. AFAIK, there is nothing in the rules that says a 0' threat range means no AoO. It simply means that you can't threat OUTSIDE of your space. So, you may AoO inside of your space.
Think of it this way: take four adjacent spaces, the PC in one of them threatens the other spaces, correct? He doesn't threaten (normally) the space beyond the adjacent space.
Now just shift everything down. A Tiny would threaten, in a Tiny manner, everything adjacent to his Tiny space (e.g. a regular space) but not beyond it. (ignore the idea that the Tiny creature would by default be adjacent to three other, non-Tiny spaces!)

 

[Dross]

"A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so."
Yet technically, on the same page (above it):
"You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless"

I'd actually argue that in this case, the small sized creature staying in the occupied square is a specific case that overrides the general rule of not being able to end your turn in an occupied square (not that I've found a specific rule on that).

I'd note that forcing them out means an AoO every time they want to attack someone and almost having the Spring Attack feat, which to me does not seem to be RAI.


BTW, Rules Compendium pg 116 in the Little Creatures part has the last sentence say "A creature that has a reach of 0 feet still threatens the square it’s in."