D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Changes to the Monster Manual

[Li Shenron]

What he's trying to say is this that if you have a chaotic party, nobody is going to have a lawful weapon for those times when you run into a powerful chaotic creature with DR. And presumably, the cleric isn't going to be able to cast Align Weapon to make a lawful weapon...

Whereas you can make general assumptions about good PCs not fighting good creatures (even if they may be false in certain rare or specific circumstances), it's a lot harder to make that assuption about lawful or chaotic creatures, especially since D&D presents the good/evil axis as more important than the law/chaos one.

Ok. I don't think that (except for divine spellcasters) many Lawful PCs will refuse to cast a Chaotic spell on the weapon or to use a Chaotic weapon. They may be concerned about it, but nothing prevents them to do so. If you have a campaign strongly focused on the opposition between Law & Chaos it may be different, thought probably you'll have lesser opportunities to be attacked by someone aligned with your ethos.

 

[gfunk]

I could be very, very wrong but the new spell "Align Weapon" on the Cleric spell list (2nd level) might allow you to temporarily gain a Lawful, Chaotic, Holy or Unholy weapon.

But then again if you are a Chaotic cleric to begin with, you won't be able to cast Lawful spells.

 

[drnuncheon]

Ok. I don't think that (except for divine spellcasters) many Lawful PCs will refuse to cast a Chaotic spell on the weapon or to use a Chaotic weapon.

Well, I believe that align weapon is a divine spell only. Also, the negative level that holy/unholy/lawful/chaotic weapons impose on the opposite alignment is generally enough for players to prefer to get rid of such items (or not to aquire them in the first place).

J

 

[DreamChaser]

this of course begs the question of why a group of lawful characters wants to kill the intensely lawful creature (or same with chaotic).

From what I've heard so far, most of the DR numbers are lower anyway. So even if you don't have the property, you can still hurt it. And don't forget spells etc. Even by 5th level, a fighter isn't going to be all the hindered by 5 points of DR and could even get through 10 in a pinch. The rogue has 3d6 sneak attack at 5th level, again enough to work through DR, wizards and clerics have spells.

I'm not too worried about the lack of ability to use certain items. It just makes for more roleplaying.

DC

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

this of course begs the question of why a group of lawful characters wants to kill the intensely lawful creature (or same with chaotic).

Well, chaotic good players might have a grudge against a chaotic evil titan...

 

[AuraSeer]

this of course begs the question of why a group of lawful characters wants to kill the intensely lawful creature (or same with chaotic).

"Mr. Paladin, I'd like to introduce you to Mr. Pit Fiend. I'm sure you'll like each other, since you're both Lawful and therefore have lots in common."

 

[Henry]

The Pit Fiend needs a Holy weapon to harm it, not Lawful.

But the point about Chaotic Good PC's and Chaotic Evil Titans does stand.

 

[AuraSeer]

The Pit Fiend needs a Holy weapon to harm it, not Lawful.

I was responding to the question of why Lawful PCs would attack a Lawful monster. The point is that sharing alignment components doesn't automatically make characters allies.

 

[Silver Griffon]

Ok. I don't think that (except for divine spellcasters) many Lawful PCs will refuse to cast a Chaotic spell on the weapon or to use a Chaotic weapon. They may be concerned about it, but nothing prevents them to do so. If you have a campaign strongly focused on the opposition between Law & Chaos it may be different, thought probably you'll have lesser opportunities to be attacked by someone aligned with your ethos.

From the SRD
Chaotic
A chaotic weapon deals +2d6 points of bonus chaotic damage against all struck opponents of lawful alignment. It bestows one negative level on any lawful creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so enchanted bestow the chaotic power upon their ammunition.

Unless these qualities are changed in 3.5 I think the part I put in bold text shows that a lawful character, for example, is very unlikely to be willing to wield a Chaotic weapon! The Lawful weapon enhancement bestows the same negative level on chaotic creatures.
But remember, DR does not make you incapable of dealing damage to the creature, it just reduces the damage. It is still possible to fight them effectively. It just requires a modification in tactics and might make for some very long battles.

 

[Tzarevitch]

The only type of DR that worries me is chaotic or lawful - I think's that making too many assumptions about the alignment of party members.

I think admantine works fine. After all, any 13th-level party would have +3 weapons anyway, so it isn't like it actually counted before.

I don't think 3.5 is making any assumptions about the alignment of the party. If they can't breach the alignment DR then they can't breach it. Its as simple as that. They made their alignment choices so they deal with the consequences. Personally I think you are badly underestimating PC capabilities to prepare and adapt.

Also, it's not like we are going to continue to see DRs in the 60s anymore. Even a DR of 15 (which sounds like it will be on the high end of the 3.5 scale) can be breached by a mid level fighter or monk with appropriate capabilities for his level. Useful strength a 2-handed weapon and 3.5 Power attack will get you there. Yes it will cut into damage a lot, but that is why it is called a damage reduction.

Yes it is also possible that the PCs may not be able to breach it at all, then in that case they will have to rely on the spellcasters to carry that particular fight. There are any number of creatures that magic is minimally effective against and the fighter-types have to deal with, I fail to see why it is so horrifying that the reverse may be true.

Tzarevitch