[3.5] Cleric Spell LIst Changes Summary!!

Bleys said:
I'm assuming cure light wounds, mass (which appears in the other thread) was just a case of overzealousness on the delete key? (or was it already there and I'm just more dense than usual?) ;)

Ya....I guess I figured healing circle going away and cure light wounds, mass coming in was pretty much a wash, so I didn't list those changes.

Skaros
 

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Still pretty worthless for PCs. By 11th level, party members will probably have +4 items for their primary stats and +2 items for their secondary stats. Truly worthless for all the mental buffs except Owl's Wisdom. (What, we're in combat, let's boost everyone's charisma. . . +4 charisma Mr Fighter, Mr Rogue, Mr Wizard. . . . unless you're a party of sorcerors and paladins it does nothing) Owl's wisdom at least adds to will saves.

Now if they were 4th level, they might be worth talking about (they give a similar bonus to that of Recitation)--maybe even potentially at 5th. But at 6th? That could be a Summon Monster VI. Or Harm or Heal. Or a Hero's Feast (which would give the party bonusses for all day). And if your game continues to use Bear's Heart, forget about these. 1 level lower, as much strength as mass Bull's Strength, AND a bunch of temporary hit points all for a little subdual damage after combat and a 1 combat duration (not that 1 min/level is reliably any longer).

Mass animal buff spells are pretty much worthless at 6th level (unless the party is travelling around with a large troop of lower level characters. For NPCs, OTOH, this could be an interesting choice--although probably not an optimal one at 6th level, and not even interesting if Bear's Heart is available. Mass buff spells lack the blast of a flame strike but NPCs often do travel with hordes of ill-equipped lower level flunkies--most of whom won't have any statbuff items.

The revised motto of 3eR: "More options (for NPCs); more restrictions (for PCs)."

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Interesting...Mass Animal Buffs...they went down to 1/min per level, but now they can affect the ENTIRE party at a flat +4 bonus...that doesn't sound as "nerfed" as was being screamed before...:cool:
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
Still pretty worthless for PCs. By 11th level, party members will probably have +4 items for their primary stats and +2 items for their secondary stats. Truly worthless for all the mental buffs except Owl's Wisdom. (What, we're in combat, let's boost everyone's charisma. . . +4 charisma Mr Fighter, Mr Rogue, Mr Wizard. . . . unless you're a party of sorcerors and paladins it does nothing) Owl's wisdom at least adds to will saves.


Actually its been stated that the cost of skill and especially stat boosting items have gone up considerably.
 

I am wonderig what status does. If it gives nothing but meta game infromation to the players (#of hitpoints remaing, # of HD) it is right out of the window I can tell you. Like that spell from Masters of the Wild which let's druids see how much HD a creature has... yuck! "Oh, he's only 7th level, no disintegrates from him!"

Rav
 


Unless spontaneous cure casting has been changed, by adding cure light wounds, mass (etc.) they have just opened up spontaneous cure casting at higher levels (without resorting to metamagicing lower leveled spells).

Nice. :)
 

Where has it been stated? As far as I know, Piratecat was the original source of the rumor when he posted something like "the cost of skill boosting items has gone up considerably" and that he wouldn't be surprised if the cost of stat-boosting items went up too but he hadn't seen any indications of it. Far from a dramatic statement like some have made it out to be.

In addition, there are good reasons considering the other 3.5 changes to think that they won't be altered. It would be pretty moronic for the designers of 3.5 to complain that people were substituting buff spells for items and then up the cost of items as well as reducing the utility of the buff spells. The primary reason they gave for nerfing the animal buff spells was to make people buy items. If items aren't affordable, they won't accomplish that.

And even if the cost of stat boosting items has really gone up, the mass buff spells still aren't worthwhile as 6th level spells. In your standard 4 person party (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard), they will mean at most +15 damage on round 1 and +19 damage on subsequent rounds--assuming the rogue and cleric are in melee after it is cast, that the fighter has a two handed weapon, that everyone makes only full attack actions, and that nobody misses. On the other hand, even the nerfed 3.5e Haste spell is likely to give the same party +24 damage/round just between the fighter and the rogue (not including sneak attack damage in any calculations). A Summon Monster VI spell is (Celestial Dire Bear) is likely to deal a good 30+ points of damage or so per round on a full attack. A flame strike (5th level spell) is likely to deal 38 points of damage per target on a failed save. And if there's one target, Harm will deal up to 110 points of damage (at 11th level) on a failed save. The only advantage it MIGHT have over those spells is duration but if it's being cast during combat it's got to justify it's casting time in that combat and it can't do that. And if it's being cast out of combat (which is unlikely if it is also 1 min/level), it's not doing anything that couldn't be done by a bunch of 2nd level spells (which, unlike 6th level ones, have little opportunity cost at level 11+)

Mass Bull's Strength doesn't come close to any of those numbers in a 4 character party. Make it a 10 character party and give each of the characters full attack actions and two handed weapons and assume they never miss and it may start to stack up. That's nothing like your typical PC party though--more like an NPC ambush wagon. (And, even in that situation, mass buff spells still lose a matchup with 3.5e Haste.... and when a 6th level cleric spell is dramatically losing comparisons to a 3rd level spell--even a wizard spell--it's time to wonder if it's really worth casting; Flame strike wouldn't be cast if it weren't in the same league as fireball).

Valiantheart said:
Actually its been stated that the cost of skill and especially stat boosting items have gone up considerably.
 
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Valiantheart said:


Actually its been stated that the cost of skill and especially stat boosting items have gone up considerably.
According to Andy Collins' board stat boosting hasn't changed at all. Skill boosting has gone up quite a bit, though.
 
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Ravellion said:
I am wonderig what status does.

Rav

My guess would be that the standard PHB Status spell was just moved from 4th level to 2nd level. It might see more use there and, unless they changed its duration, helps replace some of the lost hour/level spells.

-Rill
 


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