D&D 3.x [3.5] Crit stacking?

[Spatula]

Even in 3.5 a falchion can still get a whopping threat range of 15-20 (3 in 10) x2 with even 1 expansion of its threat range (keen or improved critical). The poor battleaxe however is now forever stuck at 19-20 (1 in 10) x3. The 3x greater frequency of crit hits will significantly outweigh the slightly greater damage multiplier on average. The +1 threat increase solution allows the narrow-crit weapons to keep some parity while still limiting threat range increases overall.

You're forgetting the the falchion and the battleaxe have different base damage, and the battleaxe is 1H while the falchion is 2H.

What you seem to be missing is that the martial weapons are all perfectly balanced with one another in terms of base damage, threat range, and critical multiplier. Weapons of the same size have different properties but pretty much do the same average damage. Battleaxes are distinct but basically the same as longswords, for example. In order to maintain that parity when the threat ranges are increased through feats or magic, you need to increase the range by its original amount, not just a flat +1. The +1 across-the-board increase gives a bigger boost to the small threat-range, large-multiplier weapons over the others.

 

[Spatula]

Crit stacking was a mechanical manipulation of the rules (that were not intended)

Then why do the rules address how to properly stack threat range enhancements?

 

[Davek]

How about:

Crit on natural 20
Confirm on threat range ie. roll d20 and if unmodified roll is within range crit stands (no BAB or anything).
Damage modifier stays the same.

Then you can play with the threat range as much as you want, and all weapons will stay balanced relatively.

 

[Staffan]

On the other hand, if you need a 15 to hit someone, and you have a crit range of 12-20 with a Melee Attack of +14, and you roll a 13 for your first attack and a measily 5 for your "confirmation" hit (to confirm the crit) that is still a 19, which beats the AC 15. So what's the points? I don't know... What was your point?

Let's say you have a keen/ImpCrit scimitar (threatens on 12+), an attack bonus of +14, and an opponent with AC 29. You then proceed to roll a 13. 13+14 = 27, which is not enough to hit AC 29. Even though the roll is within your threat range, you didn't hit because your attack roll didn't equal or exceed the AC.
The only roll that's automatically a hit is a natural 20.

 

[Ferret]

I noticed this in Olgar Shiverstone's 3.5e rules compilation.



So does this screw all the fighters with improved critical and keen scimitars? Can anyone elaborate on it, please?

What such fighhters, I thought everyone thought that 1d6 scimitars sucked

I can't see the problem, I prefer just to have some of my cake and eat a bit.


And no, I don't dislike Scimitars.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

There's already precedent for magic items granting virtual feats to their wearer (Bracers of Archery, Monk's Belt, Gloves of Arrow Snaring, etc). What if the Keen enhancement was just reworded to give a virtual Improved Critical feat?

 

[Anubis]

I see no problem with the new rules. In fact, these are an improvement. It makes perfect sense that a fighter's training is overshadowed by magic. Magic is powerful.

What this allows is two paths to better crits, either through magic or through training, but NOT both. No more human cuisinart ranger/tempest/weapon masters with bladed gauntlets to hit for thousands of damage per turn upon critting eight straight times.

If you are that upset, create new feats and magical properties that work like things like Greater Spell Focus or Flaming Burst.

Keen: +1, threat range doubles
Sharp: +5, threat range triples (remember a tripling is two doublings)
Razor: +9, threat range quadruples (three doublings)

Improved Critical: same as Keen
Greater Critical: same as Sharp
Supreme Critical: same as Razor

BETTER YET, what the new rules basically say is that the magical property Keen *gives you Improved Critical with the weapon*. Dur. Do the same for others. Simple!

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I see no problem with the new rules. In fact, these are an improvement. It makes perfect sense that a fighter's training is overshadowed by magic. Magic is powerful.

What this allows is two paths to better crits, either through magic or through training, but NOT both. No more human cuisinart ranger/tempest/weapon masters with bladed gauntlets to hit for thousands of damage per turn upon critting eight straight times.

Yeah, 'cause that 19-20 crit range is powerful.

If you are that upset, create new feats and magical properties that work like things like Greater Spell Focus or Flaming Burst.

Keen: +1, threat range doubles
Sharp: +5, threat range triples (remember a tripling is two doublings)
Razor: +9, threat range quadruples (three doublings)

Improved Critical: same as Keen
Greater Critical: same as Sharp
Supreme Critical: same as Razor

BETTER YET, what the new rules basically say is that the magical property Keen *gives you Improved Critical with the weapon*. Dur. Do the same for others. Simple!

So lets make a new rule because we want crits to be rare, then add more feats and enchantments that make crits common!

--Smarmy Spikey

 

[Plane Sailing]

If the problem was truly one of stacking of the feat and keen, perhaps the best solution would be to have increased the price of keen? At the moment it is a +1 enchantment and that is relatively cheap and easy to add. If it was rated at a +2 or +3 enchantment it would be much less likely to be chosen.

I believe that this is an artificial inflation of its value, for mathematical reasons which have been seen many, many times. It would drastically reduce the number of keen improved crit weapons.

Really though, this should be an issue for DM's to adjudicate on their own. They decide what treasure is available, they decide what can be made or obtained. I think Andy should have left it for individual DM's to sort out as they wish.

n.b. check out 3rd level spells. Compare GMW with Keen Edge. GMW gives at least a +1 enhancement, and up to +5, for 1hour/level. What does keen do? a +1 equivalent enhancement for 10mins per level. Sounds like when they were sorting spells out they figured that keen was *considerably* more powerful. Wonder what was happening there!

Cheers

 

[Mike Sullivan]

If the problem was truly one of stacking of the feat and keen, perhaps the best solution would be to have increased the price of keen? At the moment it is a +1 enchantment and that is relatively cheap and easy to add. If it was rated at a +2 or +3 enchantment it would be much less likely to be chosen.

I believe that this is an artificial inflation of its value, for mathematical reasons which have been seen many, many times. It would drastically reduce the number of keen improved crit weapons.

Just remove scabbards of Keen Edge, and see how many people are willing to pay for the actual keen bonus.

(Probably a great many people, actually. But it's not worth it. )