D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Druids - what to do about them?

[winterwolf]

I would like to point out that few druids ever actually reach their max potential...many people won't min/max classes. Yes, a druid can be broken. But, with the right spells, so can a wizard or any other spellcasting class. Heck, in 3.0 edition, the bard/fighter was one of the best classes to play as. Our group has never had a problem with druids...in fact, the first druid we had ended up getting frustrated because she was always being outclasses in almost every field. Kind of like that The Thief Was A Joke line. She focused on cats, (roleplay again), had a cheetah familiar, and had fun until everyone outclassed her.
If you roleplay a druid, instead of just min/max them, then the class isn't broken. Just like every other class, in fact.
Quite frankly, I've always viewed druids as fun, but a bit underpowered in many situations.
Now, i admit that adding prestige classes can change that, but prestige classes change things for every class. The assassin prestige class, for example, is quite deadly. The eldritch Knight is flat-out nasty, especially if used with a couple of levels of arcane duelist.

 

[Mistwell]

Both charging -- that's not an easy setup. They essentially have to come from different directions. You can't charge to the side of a creature.

Why not? I thought you just had to move in a straight line to make your melee attack...but you can attack from any square you could otherwise make a melee attack from (including the side).

 

[satori01]

i don't believe that this is accurate.

ROUND 1:

move: fly​

standard: begin casting Call Lightning (or SNA)​

ROUND 2:

standard: compete casting Call Lightning (or SNA)​

move: fly​

You demonstrated exactly what I wanted to convey, that a flying wildshape druid is not going to be casting Call Lightning as a full round action, but in two rounds.

Late night posting can make one a bit incoherent.

As for the bear with plate barding having a high AC, again just shows that a smart druid will be spending a chunk of their character wealth on getting their Animal Companion to a higher level of survialbility.

I'm curious how people deal with armor proficency and barding. I have house ruled you need to teach an animal an "armor" trick to let them wear barding greater than leather armor.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Why not? I thought you just had to move in a straight line to make your melee attack...but you can attack from any square you could otherwise make a melee attack from (including the side).

You have to move in a straight line directly towards your opponent. This does not mean directly towards the side of your opponent. Check out some of the figures in the PH.

 

[Funkthis]

My experience with DMing a Druid

I've been running a campaign that has gone from 1st to 7th so far. The campaign has been a mix of outdoors and underground/underdark. The druid since about 3rd lvl has been one of if not the most useful members of the party.

First, in combat he has always been at the top of list next to the fighter. This is primarily due to his animal companion. For the longest time it was a dire weasel and let me tell you before you laugh that Con drain is very nasty. I think that weasel saved their rear ends numerous times. Now its a tiger which he rides (he's a gnome). Again a lethal combo of claws and teeth along with the first melee hit being negated due to a high ride skill and a feat.

Second, the summon natures allies has been one of the party's mainstays. One it distracts most non/low intelligent foes. Two it slows down any foe when the party's fighter is low on hp's. Three, and one of the most interesting aspects so far, it allows the rogue in the party numerous flanking and thus sneak attack possiblities. Believe me it works well if the rogue positions himself with a few tumble checks.

Third, while his spells besides the sna's are not the most powerful they certainly rank as high as the cleric as far as utility. I thought at first it was just all the various situations they faced just happened to work well with his spell list but it happens time and time again.

Lastly, he hasn't even really explored his shapechanging abilities yet and the natural spell feat. I think he has only done it once or twice! I'm already cringing when he starts wanting to use it in conjuction with animal growth in a few lvls.

I must admit my exp with 3.5 druids is limited as this the first anyone has run since we switched and most of the NPC druids they have encountered have been non combat situations (although I'm already starting to plan on working in an evil druid as an enemy).

Just my experience...not saying I definatively have proven they are overpowered.

 

[Mistwell]

You have to move in a straight line directly towards your opponent. This does not mean directly towards the side of your opponent. Check out some of the figures in the PH.

I did, and it proves my point. You end in the closest space from which you can make an attack. The figures in the PH show an attack from a diagonal space. Two characters standing side by side (one below the other) charging towards a character to the left should be able to do it. Each character ends in the space closest to them from which they can make an attack. Since diagonal movement is farther than non-diagonal movement, each will end exactly as they started (one below the other) next to the target, and each can make an attack against that target.

 

[Dryfus]

(sidetrack)
Not necessarily so.... that would depend on how the Fighter/ROGUE had levelled up. It is perfectly possible for a multiclassed rogue to maintain max ranks in at least half his Rogue skills. Just alternate levels between rogue and the other class. (/sidetrack)

That may be true, the guy running the fighter/ROUGE(I'm old school what do you want), was a pretty lousy player when it came to min/maxing, but my gods can he roleplay

 

[Merlion]

I find this fascinating. While I agree that the Druid is potent in 3.5, it's been my experience that this just finally makes him almost as good as the Cleric....

Exactly. I find it very strange that someone would complain about a Druid outfightning the Fighter when the Cleric is running around out there.


the 3.5 Druid, by and large is strong but not at all overpowered. Wildshape is really not that great for melee...the ACs of most of the forms are very, very poor usualy inferior to what a Druid is liable to have anyway with Dex and even their limited armor, and the Wildshaped Druid still only has medium BAB and a d8 hit die. He gets the increased strength of a form, and the attack routines, but a fighter type of comparable level is going to have higher attack bonuses and probably more attacks.




And staying in wildshape has its disadvantages. Not being able to communicate is a biggy, also being to large to fit many places.

Another important point is that even with Natural Spell a druid is still limited by actions per round. He cant make a full attack and cast a spell in the same round (unless its a Quickened spell which takes a feat and has limitations and which any spellcaster can do).



Nextly, Druids are not the equals of the other primary casting classes when it comes to spellcasting. There spell list is far smaller and considerably more limited. They have good damage spells, good buffs and pretty good healing. Many of their other spells are very specific...they work only on animals or plants or similiar things. Their damage spells are nice early on, but direct damage generally becomes very weak at high levels, and Druids severly lack the type of offensive spells that are generally most effective at high levels: Save or Die spells. Druids get Baleful Polymorph as a 5th level spell, and Finger of Death as an 8th level spell. Compare to the Cleric who has Slay Living at 5th, Destruction at 7th and Implosion at 9th level.


A Cleric on the other hand can continiously maintain a higher AC than a Wildshaped Druid and still comminciate, go wherever they normally could, and still cast spells without a feat. Likewise, a Cleric can cast a single spell and gain the BAB and HP of a fighter, along with a strength bonus, for an entire battle...truly outfightning or at least equalling the Fighter, as oposed to the Wildshaped Druid who still has inferior AC and attack bonuses.

And at mid to high levels a Cleric will outdo a Druid in magical offense as well due to their selection of powerful save or die spells and the fact that the Druid's direct damage will have become nearly useless at this point.


The only problems I have with the Druid (and the Cleric) is that as primary spellcasters they have both good Will and Fort saves, they get a d8 hit die, and they get all their spells for free automatically. And they have sole access to spells like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement as well which should be more widely availble.
However these things have always been aspects of the Druid, and are not new to 3.5

the 3.5 druid is strong and versatile, but its not going to equal or outdo any of the other classes at their areas of focus (unlike the Cleric which is capable of doing so)

 

[Merlion]

As for the "obviously inferior spell list..." You mean like flame strike, the best 4th level damage spell on any core spell list (5th level for clerics)? Entangle, one of the best 1st level spells in the game (competing with grease)? Faerie fire, one of the best defensive spell-negating spells? Commune with nature, a hugely powerful divination? Find the path, another in the same vein? Scrying? The entire line of +4 ability score spells, some of the most useful in 3.x D&D - and the mass versions of all of these? A complete set of the first five Cures? Summon nature's ally, a spell that demands that any sane opponent do everything in his power to disrupt or counteract the spell the first time or be all but guaranteed to lose? Fire storm, an absolutely dominant damage spell? Most of the good save or dies, including baleful polymorph at the same level as a wizard? Conditional but super discounted dominates to control many powerful creatures? The nigh-almighty shapechange? Shambler, and with it as always, call lightning storm?

I think you are making a mistake here. Nobody is saying the druid spell list is bad or has nothing good in it. We're disagreeing with your idea that it is as good or better than the lists of the other primary spellcasters...because it isnt.

Flame Strike is in fact more powerful than a Divine DD spell should be, but in practice as Thanee says its not really much better than Arcane evocations of equal or even lesser level. In other words its a good spell, for a Druid, but hardly causes them to outlcass the real magical damage dealers. And, as I mentioned in my last post direct damage becomes a very poor option at higher levels anyway.


Entangle is a good spell. But, even if you figure that the Druid is always going to have plantlife to manipulate (which some times he isnt) its not neccesarily better than spells like Grease or Ray of Enfeeblement, especially since they always work.


Commune with Nature is a powerful spell, and very useful in the right circumstances (if you need to find out details about the local natural terrain)

However it is no better, and in fact a bit more specfic in nature than say Commune. Like many Druid spells, it is limited in that it only applies to nature


Every primary spellcaster gets Scrying.

as Thanee says the +4 ability score bonus spells are really quite crappy, especially in 3.5 where they dont even last any deccent amount of time. For a Druid they may have some limited use on your animal companion, but most characters are already going to have their important scores enhanced with items.


Summon Natures ally spells are good...better than the summoning spells of other classes in fact. Just like a Mage's damage spells are better than a Druid's, an a Cleric has better healing and defensive spells.



Fire Storm is ok, but by the time you get it direct damage is going to be not so great in most circumstances. And Clerics get it to.

Most of the good save or dies, including baleful polymorph at the same level as a wizard?

Huh? Druids get 2 save or die spells...one as you have mentioned is Baleful Polymorph which isnt really a Save or die anyway, the other is Finger of Death which they dont get till 8th spell level.

Compare to the Cleric who has Slay Living at 5th, Destruction at 7th, Implosion at 9th and possible Domain access to Disintegrate, Wail of the Banshee, Power Word Kill etc

And of course the Wizard...Baleful Polymorph at 5th, Disintegrate at 6th, Finger of Death at 7th, Power Word Kill, Wail of the Banshee at 9th.

Druid's do not get most of the save or dies. They barely get any at all.

The nigh-almighty shapechange? Shambler, and with it as always, call lightning storm?

Yes, and Wizards get Shapechange to, as do some Clerics. Shapechange may be a problem spell, but if so they problem is the spell itself.

Shambler is nice for creating guardians, but is hardly a combat monster of a spell.

Call Lightning Storm is a nice spell for taking out multiple lesser oponents. Its probably better than Cone of Cold at 5th, but then Cone of Cold is crap. And again, direct damage becomes pretty weak pretty quickly.


Druids are powerful spellcasters, but they lack the breadth and range of the Cleric and Wizard. To many of their spells are too conditional for them to be truly equal. That is why Druids have additional class abilities.

If you want overpowered, look at the Cleric who gets full-par primary spellcasting (and more of it than any other class in the form of their superior number of spell slots) and additional class abilities to go along with it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

First, in combat he has always been at the top of list next to the fighter. This is primarily due to his animal companion. For the longest time it was a dire weasel and let me tell you before you laugh that Con drain is very nasty. I think that weasel saved their rear ends numerous times. Now its a tiger which he rides (he's a gnome). Again a lethal combo of claws and teeth along with the first melee hit being negated due to a high ride skill and a feat.

I can see that working well during the low and low-mid levels. There are significant costs: (1) a feat, (2) many skill points for Ride, and more importantly (3) the party just sent their low AC spellcaster into the middle of a brawl.