D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Forsaker
- Thread starter Three_Haligonians
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Forsaker reply
I'm curious how many creatures actually use antimagic- the only ones I'm coming up with are beholder, colussus, and old prismatic dragons (the later two are epic). In many cases (other than the colussus), the antimagic can be avoided by just moving.
But, yes, if the forsaker has mostly (or only) extrordinary abilities (which if they don't, I'd certaintely suggest making them so) and the party encounters or uses antimagic often, forsakers could be very nice. Too bad that the forsaker can't get a magic item that would enable them to do antimagic by themselves (but of course you address this later)...
I'd leave DR as is, but make it "-". Otherwise, they aren't compensated enough for their low AC. Think of DR as kind of an alternate to AC. I'd also extend the (non-epic) class to around 13 levels, to increase their competative range.
During early epic levels, I'd allow them to pierce DR/Epic, particuarly if we go your route for piercing DR.
I'd change the fast heal ability to be the following:
Every hour, you heal your Forsaker LV in HP. This is slower, but less of a daily limit. It's also close to what you get from a ring of regeneration.
I like your piercing suggestion, your detect magic suggestion, and your anti-magic field suggestion, although I'd probably do the antimagic field for a limited duration/day (say 10 minutes at a time, once/day/5 epic LV?)
My first estimate of their power was simular, although we differ on the details. At LV 10, I had a value of 411,914 - 561,914, using two different calculation methods for abilities (ability: 100,000 or 250,000; Fast Healing 16,000; SR 85,714; DR 167,200; Tough Defense 18,000; Slippery Mind 25,000). The major problem with this method is that it dosen't identify how money would be optimally spent; it merely identifies how much money it would cost to replicate these abilities. Unfortunately, the abilities they gain aren't even close to an optimal spending of simular cash.IamIan said:
Either PC needs to roll a 2. It you look at my example, both have a Fort save of +17 when raging (I assume that they Rage at the beginning of their first action). However, a 5% chance of save failure * a 95% chance of being hit (it's a touch attack and both have lousy touch ACs) * 7-8 attacks per round adds up quickly. If you look at the creature, its tongue dosen't do damage, so DR is irrelevant against their paralysis attack.IamIan said:
I gather that all of their abilities are extrodinary? I thought that some of them were Supernatural by default (and I'm not finding my copy of Masters of the Wild to double-check).IamIan said:
I'm curious how many creatures actually use antimagic- the only ones I'm coming up with are beholder, colussus, and old prismatic dragons (the later two are epic). In many cases (other than the colussus), the antimagic can be avoided by just moving.
But, yes, if the forsaker has mostly (or only) extrordinary abilities (which if they don't, I'd certaintely suggest making them so) and the party encounters or uses antimagic often, forsakers could be very nice. Too bad that the forsaker can't get a magic item that would enable them to do antimagic by themselves (but of course you address this later)...
My comments on this are:IamIan said:
I'd leave DR as is, but make it "-". Otherwise, they aren't compensated enough for their low AC. Think of DR as kind of an alternate to AC. I'd also extend the (non-epic) class to around 13 levels, to increase their competative range.
During early epic levels, I'd allow them to pierce DR/Epic, particuarly if we go your route for piercing DR.
I'd change the fast heal ability to be the following:
Every hour, you heal your Forsaker LV in HP. This is slower, but less of a daily limit. It's also close to what you get from a ring of regeneration.
I like your piercing suggestion, your detect magic suggestion, and your anti-magic field suggestion, although I'd probably do the antimagic field for a limited duration/day (say 10 minutes at a time, once/day/5 epic LV?)
Zimbel said:
This Is True... but it is the Value of the abilities they get...
Just becuase the Abilities aren't the Best possible combination doesn't lessen thier value.
Zimbel said:
Yes... But I must be Missing something... Becuase the First Level of Forsaker Gives +2 at best on the same Level the Barbarian Got +1 and the Forsaker Has Great Fort +2 as a Feat... should put him at least 1 above the Barbarian and in my experience people almost never take the Extra Save Feats... The Forsaker Has to as a Class Requirement... so the Vast majority of the Time the Forsaker has +3 more than the Straight Barbarian in Fort and allot more in Will Saves....
But maybe I am missing a Step or maybe it just happens to work out the same sinse either fail on a 1... and this example doesn't show the difference between the saves.
Zimbel said:
Yup.. All Extra-Ordinary Abilities... Which means no way to turn them off or negate them...
And by Defualt SR Never Stacks but it specificly says under the Ex Ability of SR for the Forsaker that it stacks with any other SR they may already have... only catch is that since they can't use Magic or Even Spell Like Abilities it has to be a Natural Ability of the Race they Are.
Zimbel said:
ANGEL, PLANETAR CR 16 at will greater dispel magic
ANGEL, SOLAR CR 23 at will greater dispel magic, 1/Day wish, 1/day miracle
AVORAL CR 9 at will dispel magic
BABAU CR 6 at will , dispel magic
BALOR CR 20 at will greater dispel magic
BEBILITH CR 10 Rend Armor (Ex)
GLABREZU CR 13 at will dispel magic
NALFESHNEE CR 14 at will greater dispel magic
PIT FIEND CR 20 at will greater dispel magic, 1 / Yr Wish
DRIDER CR 7 1 /Day dispel magic
Formian Queen CR 17 Dispel Magic
EFREETI CR 8 1 / Day 3 Wishes
GHAELE CR 13 at Will Dispel Magic
MARUT CR 15 at Will greater dispel magic
ZELEKHUT CR 9 at Will dispel magic
LAMMASU CR 8 4 / Day Dispel Magic
GUARDIAN NAGA CR 10 7 / Day Dispel Magic
NIGHTCRAWLER CR 18 at Will greater dispel magic
NIGHTWALKER CR 16 at Will greater dispel magic , Crush Item
NIGHTWING CR 14 3 / Day greater dispel magic , Magic Drain (Su):
GYNOSPHINX CR 8 3 / Day dispel magic
PIXIE CR 4 1 / Day Dispel Magic
TITAN CR 21 at Will Greater Dispel Magic
Beholder is ober with cone of anti-Magic Field
In Epic colussus Anti-Magic Field
Plus Anti - Magic Equipment...
In my experience DMs rarely attack Character's Magic Stuff... when it is the biggest part of the threat to the Creature... and Intelligent Creature should know this.. and attack the magic stuff first especially those creatures with At Will Dispel Magic or Greater.
No. However, it makes useful (buying items vs special abilities) comparisons more difficult. If it were closer (like Vow of Poverty) it would be more useful. The combat examples suggests that it costs far less than 400,000 to get equivalent overall combat power, even if it would cost more for replicating the exact same abilities. This is why I went to combat examples for my second attempt; it gives a better measure of overall effectiveness. I also deliberately chose the level I felt was most favorable to the Forsaker.IamIan said:
The Barbarian has a Cloak +3 (of resistance). That makes up for the +3 difference you're finding. I agree that Great Fort. is a rare feat, partially because resistance items are so cheap to buy.IamIan said:
I've occasionally played with Dispel magic; I've yet to find it useful against items; the creature will almost always do better attacking.IamIan said:
At best, Dispel/Greater Dispel magic takes out 1 item for 1d4 rounds. If the creatures significantly outnumber the party, this may be useful on occasion.
It is more useful against buff spells, where it can take out multiple spells with good rolls. On the other hand, this dosen't seem to give much of an advantage to the forsaker unless the Barbarian consistantly relies on them for basic combat ability.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
Any time a monster is dispelling magic, it's not using other, typically more notable powers on the party. Unless the entire party is spelled to the gills, it's not likely to make a big difference. Really.IamIan said:
Ok, these one's are nasty, but again - not usually the most effective tactics for them to use.
OTOH, a beholder is a walk in the park once you're at the level where you meet them, and avoiding the field is usually relatively easy.
Which is a 10ft radius of non-magicitude. The fighter can still fly (or run) away and simply pelt you using his improved strength, extra bonus to hit and extra range from magic gear. Even the wizard will be flinging objects at you with telekinesis or dropping the ceiling on you.
Except that a shot of dispel or greater dispel will usually take out a single item on a single foe, or a single spell on multiple foes and uses up that monster's action. As a character, it's what you fall back on as a last resort when nothing else is working. Monsters rarely make it to their last resorts, and are usually plenty effective with other tactics.
Oh, and as a last point:
I noted in the examples on the previous page that the barbarian is spending a fair lump of cash on boots of striding and springing, yet foes that are slower than him are getting their flank bonus, and his only tactic seems to be "close to melee range and bash away" with no thought of retreat. Surely some other item would be a better choice? Either that, or resolve all of these fights as ranged combats (in which case the barbarian comes out markedly ahead).
Zimbel said:
agreed that for the value of thier abilities there are better options....
also agreed that magic buying definately allows for more control over use of value....
Zimbel said:
agreed that single item negation for d4 melees is not often effective against larger groups or groups with tons of magic item.....
the most effective without perminate loss of character's stuff is Anti-Magic field.....
the most devistating are various types of rod of cancelation as a single hit on that shield +10 can mean the shield becomes a normal shield.... ouch...
I guess what it boils down to is that what the forsaker gives up from magic he gets some back but the rest is a sacrifice to be anti-magic proof and for the stuff not to be able to get taken away....
with a SR focused Forsaker.... SR gets crazy high and fast.... as said above a lv 10 Drow is up to like SR 42 ...
The vast majority of spell allow SR which makes the forsaker very useful gainst any spell casting enemy...
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
You're wrong. SR doesn't help the forsaker one iota against party buffs, undead, force effects or most conjurations, not to mention the destructive side effects of many spells.IamIan said:
Fair enough.Saeviomagy said:
I think I just took the DMG Barbarian of equivalent level, then pumped the items for PC wealth.
I was going more for identical tactics than intelligent ones. Frankly, in the first combat example, an intelligently played Nightwing could trash either character.
Saeviomagy said:
SR doesn't help one iota... have you seen the number of spells that will be negated by SR???
I never said it negated all spells... of course it doesn't stop buffs .. healing ... ect... but it does make him immune to many .. many other things.....
A SR of 42 by Lv 10 is a VERY powerful thing.... all powerful of course not.... but very useful....
And until the spell caster tries and fails to cast on the SR of 42... he doesn't know about it and just wastes spells.
