D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Giving other classes a chance to shine

Particle_Man

Explorer
3.5 has so many options that sometimes you can get something interesting by carving off some of them.

Imagine a world with only the following classes and no multi-classing: Warmage, Healer, Knight, Ninja, Swashbuckler, Monk, Soul Knife, Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior, and Commoner. Also, no UMD skill and no Knowledge (Psionics) skill, and no magic items that you can't make using the Healer or Warmage spell list. Spell using monsters would be similarly restricted (so Dragons would use Warmage/Healer spells, not Sorcerer/Cleric spells, etc.). Oh, no Arcane Disciple feat either.

A lot of these classes normally don't get played but this might give them a chance to shine. Heck, I might throw in Samurai too, but that is too close to Knight so I dunno. (Note that this is CW Samurai and CA Ninja, for extra weakness).

Notably in this world, there is no turning of undead. There is a nice duality between Warmage (do damage) and Healer (heal damage) and possibly between Ninja (take advantage of weakness) and Knight (never take advantage of weakness). The gods would be distant but good (no other divine casters but the healer).

I kind of like the idea in my head, but wonder what others think of it.
 

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I kind of like the idea. It certainly wouldn't be a lot people's cup of tea; but as a short campaign, I think it could be a really nice deviation from the norm. I'd probably do quite a bit of reskinning the classes for flavor reasons, though.

Personally, I'd probably keep the UMD skill, or at least the "operate blindly" aspect of it for certain characters (maybe a feat with weird Know(arcana) and Disable Device prereqs or something). But really that's a campaign specific thing; I can just as easily envision a setting with it as without it.
 

Quite frankly, the problem with low tier classes is twofold: not only do other classes do their job better, but often low tier classes invalidate themselves. A level 10 warmage vs non-spellcasting CR 10 monsters may not contribute enough to the party justify their presence.

If you'd like, a demonstration can be arranged.
 

That would be interesting, but my response would simply be to present the level 10 party with (say) CR 8 monsters while giving them experience points as if they faced CR 10 monsters. I already know that the characters are weak, after all. :)
 


Setting a weak martial artist loose on kindergartners is not allowing him to shine.

In a world of kindergardeners, how does one tell who is weak? Isn't the magnitude of the numbers just arbitrary anyway?

To contribute successfully, doesn't a 10th level character only need to be doing about 20-25 pts of damage average per round to a 10 CR target? Few CR 10 brutes are going to have much more than 150 hit points, so at 25 pts of damage per round that 6-7 characters attacking it or less than 2 rounds of combat if you could do that. I wouldn't have warmages in my game because I find the concept boring, but in most EL 10 situations I think they could probably manage ok.

I can see the problem in competing with higher tiers but I'm not seeing how a uniformly lower tier has to compete with something that's not even in play.
 

Contrariwise, if there is a particular special ability or condition that a monster or trap has that the OP party would find impossible to circumvent, I could simply not have that monster or trap, or remove the particular special ability or condition from that monster or trap. Are there particular special abilities or conditions that I would have to watch out for?

Note, I am not making Dandu or other play in this campaign, nor will it be a tournament campaign. Assume that I have players game to try this campaign. What would I need to modify (in the world, not the characters) to decrease the chance that they would not feel useful?
 

Do not expect quick travel or interplanar travel. Don't expect a high degree of versatility.
To contribute successfully, doesn't a 10th level character only need to be doing about 20-25 pts of damage average per round to a 10 CR target?
Most optimizers set the bar higher. For example, if you fight a Hydra, it can rip pretty much anyone it gets into melee with into shreds. You have to either cripple its offensive capabilities, hinder its movement, or kill it outright so you don't wind up with a dead or badly injured party member.

So either you debuff it (not an option), cripple it (not really an option) or deal enough damage so that it dies quickly- preferably in the first round. This necessitates a DPS of more than 20-25 damage, as a CR 10 Hydra has 118 HP and fast healing 21.

Again, it's not only a problem of lower tiers not being competitive with higher tier classes, it's that they have difficulty standing up to the challenges they're supposed to take on.

You could handle it by lowering the difficulty of the challenges. The result is a low powered game with classes that have limited problem solving abilities and who have to go up against weaker enemies if they want to win.

But hey, if that's what the OP's going for...
 
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Do not expect quick travel or interplanar travel.

Quick travel or access to interplanar travel is not a necessity to a campaign or story. Indeed, if the story is 'Man against Nature' or some thing of the such, quick travel may even hinder realization of the story. I don't think you can call something 'underpowered' on the grounds that it doesn't have the means to change the basic plot or basic assumptions of the world. While the ability to dictate the sort of story you are in may be attractive, it isn't the basis for judging whether or not a class is 'underpowered'.

Your statements seem to indicate that a system as a whole can be 'underpowered' if it doesn't provide the easy options and world shattering power of some other system.

Perhaps you should recommend everyone play Scion?

Most optimizers set the bar higher.

Well, sure, most optimizers would certainly set the bar higher than the reasonable expectations of a tier 5 class. But most optimized builds can take on equal CR or EL challenges without assistance, and to truly strain a party of 4 optimized builds would probably require at least 3-4 EL+4 encounters in a day. In my experience, with optimization, EL = party level encounters require negligible expenditure of resources. This is obviously a different approach with different expectations.

Take your hydra suggestion. We could just as easily look at Fire Giants or Bebelith, but 11 Headed Hydra is a fine example. Suppose we have 4 characters dealing 25 damage each. The our hydra with its 120 hitpoints at fast healing 21, if it doesn't put up a strong resistance, is going to die sometime in the second round.

Against the Hydra, I don't think our Warmage is going to feel useless assuming the rest of the party is built to a similar tier.

The Hydra has a move speed of 20', and a charge of 40'. The Warmage has several options:

1) Mass Fire Shield - If everyone has Fire Shield up, each attack by the hydra inflicts 1d6+10 damage to the hydra. Full attack by the Hydra on a party so protected can quickly kill the Hydra. Of course, optimally, the party avoids this fate but even in the worse case this expedient alone is probably going to win the fight provided that Hydra can be made to stick to a 'tank' whose hit points at level 10 are going to be comparable to the hydras (85 or more) and who has an AC high enough that say 1/3rd or more of the attacks will miss. After that, it is the application of a single heal spell to restore our pounded tank to fighting strength.
2) Evard's Black Tentacles - Tradiational hydra tactics revolve around 'kiting' the hydra so that it is kept at a distance for as long as possible. The Warmage is exceptionally well suited for this as a ranged attacker capable of dealing 20 or more damage at range for many rounds in a row, without resorting to a full attack. Additionally the Warmage has limited battlefield control. A field of tentacles will require the Hydra at least two rounds to cross, during which time the party can adjust and pour on ranged fire. There is also a reaonable change the +18 grapple bonus of the tentacles will beat the hydras +25, sticking the hydra in place for one or more rounds.
3) Multiple sources of ranged area of effect fire damage: The war mage is going to be able to regularly hit the hydra with ranged damage doing an average 35+ damage prior to the save, with about 50% chance of save. Average damage is going to be around 27, sufficient by himself to overcome the fast heal and automaticlly burning any exposed stumps should any heads have been severed.

Presumably the rest of the party will be roughly as capable as the Warmage in this rebalanced game. A CR10 hydra may well be a considerable challenge for the level 10 Tier 5 party, but I don't feel that in that situation a level 10 Warmage is going to feel like his presence is unjustified or that somehow his abilities 'invalidate themselves'.

Again, it's not only a problem of lower tiers not being competitive with higher tier classes, it's that they have difficulty standing up to the challenges they're supposed to take on.

The challenges that a party is supposed to take on are almost completely arbitrary. If from the conception of the game, every class was as powerful as Commoner, then all that would change is we'd have a different scale for what monsters made a balanced challenge at a given level. When we adjust the numbers, all we are adjusting is arbitary numbers. The tendency of the game has been to continually adjust these numbers upward in to higher and higher reaches. But the fact that the numbers are now arbitrarily larger doesn't necessarily change anything. One of the reasons I didn't enjoy Diablo II (for example) is that the math was so fixed that the game played pretty much the same regardless of whether I had 20 hit points or 200 or 2000, or whether I was doing 10 damage or 100.
 
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