D&D 3E/3.5 Combining 3.0 and 3.5 - A Thread

Both Haste and Polymorph are some of the most egregious offenders in 3.x, but yes, the 3.5 ones are a bit better. I'd be tempted to dump or re-write them entirely, to be honest.

@Celebrim how do you revise those two/three spells?

I'm happy with the 3.5 Haste, but all the 3.5 shape changing spells including Alter Self are broken as written in 3.5 because they allow you to make LA adjustments to your character class. They would to be balanced require everyone who made a monster to ask, "How would this impact Alter Self or Polymorph Self/Other"? I know I have homebrew versions of the spells based on how they worked in 1e (which was balanced IMO) but I'd tend to prefer the 3.0e version of Alter Self and Polymorph over the less restricted versions of 3.5e.
 

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I'm happy with the 3.5 Haste, but all the 3.5 shape changing spells including Alter Self are broken as written in 3.5 because they allow you to make LA adjustments to your character class. They would to be balanced require everyone who made a monster to ask, "How would this impact Alter Self or Polymorph Self/Other"? I know I have homebrew versions of the spells based on how they worked in 1e (which was balanced IMO) but I'd tend to prefer the 3.0e version of Alter Self and Polymorph over the less restricted versions of 3.5e.
3.5 Haste is ok. I still think it's so good that it's a bit boring/borderline compulsory. I really think it might be better reverting more back to Chainmail form, and just making the whole party or unit move faster (and maybe get an initiative bonus) without granting any additional actions.

My preferred fix for polymorphs tends to be to break them down into specific spells for specific forms. As you mentioned, leaving them as they are makes them more powerful virtually every time a new monster is introduced.

Turn to Frog is an effect I want in my game. Turn to any frickin' monster in any manual is not. Unless maybe via Shapechange or something similar which is so close to the end of any campaign I'd run that I'm less worried about widespread impacts.
 

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
You assume the outward appearance of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. For the duration of the spell, you may switch between forms as a full round action.
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire certain physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. These qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities such as natural burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight speeds (maximum speed of 30 feet (clumsy) for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), and any gross physical qualities relating to appearance (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). You likewise lose the qualities of your normal form when you make this change. You gain any racial skill bonuses to strength, dexterity, or constitution based skills (maximum +8), but you lose the racial skill bonus to skills of this sort of your natural form. You do not gain the natural armor class of the new form, but you may retain your own. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, poison, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.

Wildshape
Transmutation
Level: Sha 4
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw: Yes (Harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (Harmless)

You gain the ability to shape change into a Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. The form chosen must be that of an animal the caster is familiar with. A caster loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, however the spellcaster may speak any of the secret language of animals he knows – since such languages may be expressed by sound and gesture in any form of animals.

The spellcaster gains the size class, natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, racial skill bonuses, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. The spellcaster loses the same qualities of his old form, including any extraordinary abilities that are not the result of class levels and any supernatural breath weapon or gaze attacks. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the caster gains that subtype as well but it retains all other types and subtypes of its old form. The creature loses its racial bonuses for physical ability scores gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) racial bonuses of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

Casters in wildshape may assume animal forms without fear of losing their identity, but they will notice developing a general outlook on the world similar to the animal whose form they will have assumed. For example, they will generally find the food stuffs the animal prefers to be delicious, and the scents it prefers to be delightful, and the habits that the animal enjoys to be pleasant – which may possibly revolting to the caster or observers if they think about it. Casters must also be careful about observing any taboos that they have while in animal form. For this reason, casters often prefer forms whose animal preferences in behavior and outlook are most similar to their own.

Any gear worn or carried by the caster melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the caster reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the caster's feet.

Spellcasting in animal form is not generally possible, as the caster lacks appropriate vocal organs and manipulative digits. However, the spellcaster may cast any spells he able which have no components and retains the ability to use any of his spell-like abilities.

Except where noted, the spellcaster retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.

The spellcaster is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.

The spellcaster gains the ability to take the shape of a Large animal at caster level 8, a Tiny animal at caster level 11, and a Huge animal at caster level 15.

Each time cast this spell, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night. Changing back to your true form is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

A true seeing spell or ability reveals the spellcasters’s natural form.

Polymorph Self
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Personal
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You cannot assume a form smaller than two size class below your own nor more than one size class larger than your own, nor may assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. You cannot assume a form you are not intimately familiar with, having spent at least a few hours in observation of either the living creature or its largely intact corpse.

You gain the shapechanger subtype for the duration of the spell and are treated as having the type of the creature you assume for the purposes of any baneful effect.

While in a particular form you gain the racial type of that form, losing your own racial bonuses and gaining any racial feats or skill bonuses possessed by the new form. You gain the racial Strength and Dexterity modifiers of the new form, but retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, Constitution and Charisma scores. In no event may you more than double your own strength or dexterity in this manner. If you are naturally clumsy or weak or unhealthy, then your assumed form will be likewise clumsy, weak, or unhealthy.

You also gain all the movement modes of the new form. You gain all extraordinary abilities possessed by the new form but not any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

You retain your own BAB, base saving throw bonuses, and HD.

Upon assuming your first new form after casting the spell, you heal hit point damage as if you had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further).

As long as the spell duration continues, you may change to a new form once per caster level. Changing shape is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. When you can no longer change form, you must remain in that form until the spell ends. If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.
Material Component: An empty cocoon.

Polymorph Other
Transmutation
Level: Sha 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates, Will partial; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes
As polymorph self, except you target a willing or unwilling creature and force them to change to a new shape and the creature once transformed cannot voluntarily change form or regain its former shape.

If the new form would prove fatal to the creature the subject gets a +4 bonus on the save.

If the spell succeeds, the subject must also make a Will save. If this second save fails, the creature loses its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities, loses its ability to cast spells (if it had the ability), and gains the alignment, special abilities, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of its new form in place of its own. It still retains its class and level (or HD), as well as all benefits deriving there from (such as base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points). It retains any class features (other than spellcasting) that aren’t extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. Thereafter, the polymorphed being acquires the habits, personality, attitudes and goals of a typical example of its new form and remembers it's former life only when reminded of it.

The danger of forgetting your former self does not end. For each day that the creature remains in the new form, it must make another Will save or transform fully into its new form. After one week in the new form, additional saves are made but once per week, and after two months have passed they need be made only once every two months. If at the end of two years, the victim still retains his own mind, no further saves to resist the effect are required.
 
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3.5 Haste is ok. I still think it's so good that it's a bit boring/borderline compulsory. I really think it might be better reverting more back to Chainmail form, and just making the whole party or unit move faster (and maybe get an initiative bonus) without granting any additional actions.

My preferred fix for polymorphs tends to be to break them down into specific spells for specific forms. As you mentioned, leaving them as they are makes them more powerful virtually every time a new monster is introduced.

Turn to Frog is an effect I want in my game. Turn to any frickin' monster in any manual is not. Unless maybe via Shapechange or something similar which is so close to the end of any campaign I'd run that I'm less worried about widespread impacts.

I'm not as restrictive as you but do agree that shapechanging is problematic in play both for balance reasons and speed of play.

I therefore require a player who could shapechange (or summon creatures) to have already prepared an adjusted character sheet (or stat block) for each and every form that they wish to assume and further require that the form be one the character is familiar with through study or experience. They can't just flip through a monster manual and pick out forms. They either have to be acquainted with the creature from personal experience or find a suitable library for conducting research and spend time studying and researching forms. Unpracticed and ad hoc forms would generally require a spellcraft check to get "right" with failure indicating penalties to effective dexterity and unusual appearance that would readily cause anyone actually familiar with the form to recognize it as false and assumed. And again, I wouldn't even allow it unless the player can immediately provide the adjusted character sheet.

The real reason for this of course is speed of play, but it does also have some in universe lore about it as well limit somewhat the impact of such spell use.

Shapechanging of self I generally have little problem with provided some sense is applied to the spell as to what you can copy given the spell's level such that it is balanced with similar "buff" spells of that level. The real problem 3.5e introduces is beneficial shape changing for minions or fellow party members, leading to everyone running around changed into stone giants or some such.
 
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Both Haste and Polymorph are some of the most egregious offenders in 3.x, but yes, the 3.5 ones are a bit better. I'd be tempted to dump or re-write them entirely, to be honest.

@Celebrim how do you revise those two/three spells?

I've seen dozens of houserules about the Shapechange series of issues (not to mention the multiple ways WotC tried to fix it). My personal method of dealing with it at the time was to attack if through the Natural Spell feat. I came up with two similar methods.

Option 1 is to just remove Natural Spell altogether. When you remove the ability to cast in polymorphed form, it forces the character to change back to normal form a lot more often, and puts an immediate end to the worst abuses of characters walking around in alternate firm 24/7.

Option 2 is to make Natural Spell a Metamagic feat instead of a general feat. This means the character has to decide when they prepare spells if the spell will be cast in alternate form or in normal form. This puts a much larger focus on the strategy of spell prep and resource management.

Neither of these options are complete fixes, but I find they are the simplest changes with the biggest effect. While I think Option 1 is cleaner, it comes across to players as a straight nerf. Option 2 is a more complicated, but makes players feel like they have more control.
 

I've seen dozens of houserules about the Shapechange series of issues (not to mention the multiple ways WotC tried to fix it). My personal method of dealing with it at the time was to attack if through the Natural Spell feat. I came up with two similar methods.

Option 1 is to just remove Natural Spell altogether. When you remove the ability to cast in polymorphed form, it forces the character to change back to normal form a lot more often, and puts an immediate end to the worst abuses of characters walking around in alternate firm 24/7.

Option 2 is to make Natural Spell a Metamagic feat instead of a general feat. This means the character has to decide when they prepare spells if the spell will be cast in alternate form or in normal form. This puts a much larger focus on the strategy of spell prep and resource management.

Neither of these options are complete fixes, but I find they are the simplest changes with the biggest effect. While I think Option 1 is cleaner, it comes across to players as a straight nerf. Option 2 is a more complicated, but makes players feel like they have more control.

"Natural Spell" was a mistake, as it produced a situation where the Druid was a better fighter than the fighter while simultaneously being competitive with a Cleric as a healer and with a Wizard as a general caster. I don't allow the feat, as it was both overpowered and therefore compulsory.

You'll notice if you read carefully I dropped "Druid" as a class altogether in favor of a Shaman class based off the Green Ronin class, but that's a different discussion. It's still possible to build a Druid in my game, by playing a Shaman and selecting the appropriate totems, but the class is generally less versatile. You'll notice from above "Wild Shape" isn't a class feature but a spell.

Making "Natural Spell" into a metamagic feat isn't required or even helpful, as there are already things like "Silent Spell" that would let you cast a spell in animal form if it only had a verbal component, etc. Just pay attention to those components and remember they are a balancing factor in being a spellcaster. Spellcasters should not outshine non-casters, and it is a mistake to make it easy for them to do so in the name of making playing a spellcaster less situational or complex. You want an easy class to play, play a (well designed) fighter class.
 

3.5 Haste is ok. I still think it's so good that it's a bit boring/borderline compulsory. I really think it might be better reverting more back to Chainmail form, and just making the whole party or unit move faster (and maybe get an initiative bonus) without granting any additional actions.

As far as Haste goes, the changes in Haste in 3.5e compared to 3.0e turned haste from an automatic self-buff any caster did at the beginning of a fight into a buff a caster might do to other party members at the beginning of the fight. And to me, that's a crucial change. I am really all for spell-casters as support classes that make other party members around them more powerful. That sort of focus means that there is never a situation where a spell caster doesn't need the other party members, nor for that matter would buffing a fighter with haste to make him more powerful by necessity be more powerful than just having two fighters.

In short, 3.5e encourages party cooperation and gives everyone a chance to shine, where as 3.0e haste meant spellcasters even more so than usual could just "go nova" and win fights outright on their own.

Of course, fixing that later problem involves a whole lot more than just fixing Haste.

You might wonder then from this description why Polymorph Other above is so nerfed compared to 3.5e Polymorph (higher level, major drawback if you are casting it on a friend) and that's solely because the buffs that it offers in 3.5e are so vastly better than what is available in other spells of similar level. It's just too good to turn "Bob the Barbarian" into a stone giant with no downsides. Turning Bob the Barbarian into a Stone Giant in 1e was possible, but the danger always was, "Now Bob thinks he's a Stone Giant, and he's no longer your friend." You can do it, but you better have a Break Enchantment handy just in case. (Turning Bob into something without being high enough level to have Break Enchantment is in D&D what having the Call spell is in Call of Cthulhu without having the corresponding Bind and Dismiss spells.)
 


@Celebrim I'd be curious to learn about your current campaign, the players etc and to see your house rules.

I put that campaign on hold in 2020 when we weren't able to meet in person, but before that it ran like 7 years about 150 sessions (600+ hours of play). I have wanted to pick it up again, but players have moved in the mean time and meeting in person has become hard. So I've been running for about 4 years a Star Wars campaign instead.

I ran a game for family using my house rules this Christmas, and got a chance to hate all the little bugs and problems with that that having a new look at them after 5 years made apparent but I do think as a whole that my 3.25e is the best most fun version of D&D ever made (IMNSHO). After 5 years it still absolutely rocked in every way, from the fact that casters and spellcasters are well balanced, to the fact that I feel it has more interesting and versatile chargen options than 3.5e despite having a tiny fraction of pages of chargen rules.

That said, the current version of the rules with all its still needed revisions and formatting and editing is just for the Player's Handbook a 600 page long word document and I've never shared it in total outside of my players and family because it's precious to me, and also because it needs editing, and also because I'm unsure what if any portions of it violate someone's copyright. For example, it contains Ravenloft 3e inspired rules for fear, horror and madness and probably some spells that aren't OGL.

I have discussed on EnWorld fairly extensively what the core ideas of the revisions to D&D 3.0e were and why I made them and would be happy to answer any questions.
 

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