D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Improved Feint

[Li Shenron]

Does anybody else have the feeling that this is a wonderful feat for Rogues?

To feint in combat normally requires a standard action, which means that if you fail the Bluff check, you have wasted your turn's SA, and even if you succeed you didn't attack this round and the target is denied Dex bonus to AC only for your next single attack (not for a whole round worth of attacks, nor for anybody else's attack).

With IF, to feint requires only a MEA. Which means that you can both feint and attack afterwards in the same round. Of course you often need the MEA for something else, but it also happens quite frequently not to need it.

Comparing the sneak attack damage (assuming you succeed the feint Bluff check) to the option of a full attack, it looks very attractive:

Level Faint Full Attack

1 +1d6 +0
2 +1d6 +1
3 +2d6 +2
4 +2d6 +3
5 +3d6 +3
6 +3d6 +4
7 +4d6 +5
8 +4d6 +6/+1
9 +5d6 +6/+1
10 +5d6 +7/+2
11 +6d6 +8/+3
12 +6d6 +9/+4
13 +7d6 +9/+4
14 +7d6 +10/+5
15 +8d6 +11/+6/+1
16 +8d6 +12/+7/+2
17 +9d6 +12/+7/+2
18 +9d6 +13/+8/+3
19 +10d6 +14/+9/+4
20 +10d6 +15/+10/+5

When you could be doing for example an extra attack at -5, you can instead give it up in exchange for chance (there is still the Bluff check) for a +4d6 damage, which is definitely going to make your total damage more than double.

I don't know, these are just my thoughts. The feat is still quite expensive with the prerequisite of Combat Expertise which you may not use much.

 

[Stalker0]

For most rogues at higher levels, one sneak attack is usually much better than two or even three attacks- so this feat is preety good. However, they altered the feint check so that against high level fighters the bluff check is no longer automatic like it often used to be.

 

[Li Shenron]

For most rogues at higher levels, one sneak attack is usually much better than two or even three attacks- so this feat is preety good. However, they altered the feint check so that against high level fighters the bluff check is no longer automatic like it often used to be.

To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check.

You mean this? You are right, I didn't notice. It makes a lot of sense, since it's very fair that someone very experienced in combat should be also good in getting when the opponent is feinting. At the same time, Sense Motive is not a class skill for many (Paladins, Rogues, Bards and who else...?) so it would probably bee too easy otherwise. It would be much more difficult than before anyway, but with high Bluff it's definitely worth trying!

 

[Tessarael]

If you have maxed out Bluff at level+3 skill rank and have a good Charisma, and the opponent has no Sense Motive ranks, average Wisdom, and good BAB, then ...

Your Bluff score is level+7 at best say.
Their opposed score is level=BAB.

So you swap your full attack for 77% chance of feinting on the opposed check, not bad. If you have Skill Mastery in Bluff, it's 80%.

Now as you're only getting one attack at highest BAB, you should also consider using Power Attack vs. opponents that aren't heavily armored (and you need to factor in the increased Sneak Attack damage, which limits how much you should Power Attack).

My high level Fighter/Rogue-type character only gets 3d6 of Sneak Attack, so Improved Feint isn't really worth it. I'd prefer the full attack. But it would be worthwhile if you get lots of Sneak Attack dice.

Also, if your DM is allowing splat book feats, take Expert Tactician from Sword & Fist. Personally, I think this feat is too good, which is one reason why it wasn't included in 3.5E PHB.

 

[Li Shenron]

Your Bluff score is level+7 at best say.
Their opposed score is level=BAB.

...

Now as you're only getting one attack at highest BAB, you should also consider using Power Attack vs. opponents that aren't heavily armored (and you need to factor in the increased Sneak Attack damage, which limits how much you should Power Attack).

And maybe a simple Skill Focus (Bluff) or, if you prefer, Persuasive would become a more useful feat if you use this tactic a lot. It seems anyway that against a Figther of your same level, you have on the average about 50% chance of succeeding the feint (if you maxed out Bluff, and he doesn't have Sense Motive - which is not very typical for fighter types, except maybe Paladins and not all). I think it's good: when you give up a second attack (at -5) you already have +4d6 damage if you win the faint. If you are attacking a Wiz/Sor you have much a better chance.

I wasn't considering Power Attack very much. If I play a Rogue, I will probably put her lowest score in Str; Weapon Finesse (damn it can't be taken at level 1 ) compensates for melee attacks and Sneak attack for damage. Improved Initiative and Improved Feint may increased a lot the number of Sneak Attack you are doing per encounter.
PA may not be available at alll if Str<13, and even if it is the Rogue has already quite a low total attack bonus and it gets difficult to hit.

Now, if you have a Figther/Rogue, this can be very different

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

You might think so, but the Sword and Fist version doesn't work with any of the feint techniques.

It specifies that the extra attack occurs either before or after the character's normal actions when the opponent is denied use of his or her dex bonus.

Feint specifies that the target is denied their dex bonus against the feinter's next melee attack.

So before the feinter's action, he is not attacking therefore the opponent still has his dex bonus. (The dex bonus isn't lost until the moment the attack occurs) Expert Tactician can't kick in.

After the feinter's action, the opponent has their dex bonus back. (The dex bonus is regained the moment the attack is finished). So ET can't kick in after the attack either.

It turns out that expert tactician will only work in situations where the opponent is denied their dex bonus for an extended period of time--blinded, flatfooted, grappled, stunned, held, etc.

Also, if your DM is allowing splat book feats, take Expert Tactician from Sword & Fist. Personally, I think this feat is too good, which is one reason why it wasn't included in 3.5E PHB.

 

[LokiDR]

You might think so, but the Sword and Fist version doesn't work with any of the feint techniques.

The Sword and Fist is replaced by Song and Silence version.

It specifies that the extra attack occurs either before or after the character's normal actions when the opponent is denied use of his or her dex bonus.

IIRC, S&S has it occur before or after the characters next attack.

Feint specifies that the target is denied their dex bonus against the feinter's next melee attack.

Which matches up with S&S.

So before the feinter's action, he is not attacking therefore the opponent still has his dex bonus. (The dex bonus isn't lost until the moment the attack occurs) Expert Tactician can't kick in.

First, attacking is an action. Second, it has been updated to attack.

After the feinter's action, the opponent has their dex bonus back. (The dex bonus is regained the moment the attack is finished). So ET can't kick in after the attack either.

That is not the way the feat has been clearified to work. From the Sword and Fist FAQ on quicker than the eye and ET:

An opponent who fails to detect your Bluff when you use
Quicker Than the Eye does not see the partial action you take
after the Bluff, so your opponent is denied his Dexterity
bonus against your melee attacks. If you also have the Expert
Tactician feat, you can make an immediate free attack against
a foe who failed his Spot check against your Bluff. Once you
do so, that opponent is observing you again, and that
opponent will observe you if you try to run away after the
free attack. Because the attack you make by virtue of your
Expert Tactician feat is a free action, you could attempt to
use Quicker Than the Eye again, but your opponent should
get a bonus on the Spot check. The second Bluff check also is
a move-equivalent action, so you would be done acting for
the round. If the second Bluff check succeeded, however,
your opponent would once again not see you, and you could
make another free attack by virtue of your Expert Tactician
feat.

It turns out that expert tactician will only work in situations where the opponent is denied their dex bonus for an extended period of time--blinded, flatfooted, grappled, stunned, held, etc.

That is not the way it has been clarified.