D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Improved Heighten Spell NOT Metamagic??

[andargor]

Am I missing something? Heighten Spell is metamagic but Improved Heighten Spell is not?

Errata somewhere for this?

Andargor

 

[Vanye]

Am I missing something? Heighten Spell is metamagic but Improved Heighten Spell is not?

Errata somewhere for this?

What's the source book?

 

[CronoDekar]

Supposing you're talking about the epic feat there's not much need -- Improved Heighten Spell just enhances the normal abilities of Heighten Spell (hence, Heighten Spell is improved).

 

[andargor]

What's the source book?

SRD 3.5, EpicFeats.rtf

Supposing you're talking about the epic feat there's not much need -- Improved Heighten Spell just enhances the normal abilities of Heighten Spell (hence, Heighten Spell is improved)

If you have a PrC that grants bonus metamagic feats, it can be a deal. As is, only Enhance Spell and Intensify Spell are metamagic feats at epic levels.

Andargor

 

[irdeggman]

Ahh but epic wizards don't get bonus wizard feats at epic levels.

3.5 DMG pg 207 "An exception to this rule is any bonus feat progresson granted by as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as apart of a class feature (such as the feats gained by fighters and wizards), these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, therse classees get a new bonus feat progression (describedin each class summary below).

and then later under epic wizard "bonus feats: The epic wizard gains a bonus feat every three levels higher than 20th (23rd, 26th, and so on)"

This is the roughly the same description under every epic class, different bonues feat progression but no further details.

Since Improved Heighten Spell isn't listed in the DMG, but Improved Metamagic [Epic] is - I must make the assumption that is what you are referring to. Prerequisites 4 metamagic feats, Spellcraft 30 ranks.

Each time taken this applies to a different metamagic feat and effectively lowers the spell slot increase of the metamagic feat by 1.

So since epic feats are limited to epic characters (and can only be taken with epic level feat slots) a character can't use a class feature (i.e., bonus metamagic feats) to take an epic feat - he can only use the bonus epic level feats he gets from epic character levels (or epic class levels).

Hence the PR class bonus feat issue is not a question since they shouldn't progress into epic levels.

Off hand it appears that the SRD doesn't match the 3.5 DMG, which now contains the epic level rules since the Epic Level Handbook (3.0) hasn't been redone to 3.5. And the feats you are mentioning are all in the ELH but not in the 3.5 DMG. In the EPL Improved Heightened Spell is listed as a metamagic feat.

 

[andargor]

Ahh but epic wizards don't get bonus wizard feats at epic levels.

3.5 DMG pg 207 "An exception to this rule is any bonus feat progresson granted by as a class feature. If a character gets bonus feats as apart of a class feature (such as the feats gained by fighters and wizards), these do not increase with epic levels. Instead, therse classees get a new bonus feat progression (describedin each class summary below).

Agreed. But it's not what I am talking about. What I'm saying is that if you are epic and take a PrC that grants metamagic feats as part of its progression, it is not extending that PrC to Epic Class status (i.e. 11th level or more for a PrC). So that rule doesn't apply.

I'm referring more to this passage:

Adding a Second Class

When a single-class epic character gains a level, he or she may choose to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class at 1st level. The standard rules for multiclass characters still apply, but epic characters must keep in mind the rules for epic advancement. The epic character gains all the 1st-level class skills, weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, spells, and other class features of the new class, as well as a Hit Die of the appropriate type.
...

So "other class features" includes everything except BAB and saves, including bonus feats.

Since Improved Heighten Spell isn't listed in the DMG, but Improved Metamagic [Epic] is - I must make the assumption that is what you are referring to. Prerequisites 4 metamagic feats, Spellcraft 30 ranks.

Nope, I'm referring to Improved Heighten Spell:

IMPROVED HEIGHTEN SPELL [EPIC]

Prerequisites: Heighten Spell, Spellcraft 20 ranks.

Benefit: As Heighten Spell, but there is no limit to the level to which the character can heighten the spell.

Normal: Without this feat, a spell can only be heightened to a maximum of 9th level.

Andargor

 

[Thanee]

Wow! With that feat an Incantatrix can cast a DC 60 Charm Person for 750 gp.

Bye
Thanee

 

[irdeggman]

Agreed. But it's not what I am talking about. What I'm saying is that if you are epic and take a PrC that grants metamagic feats as part of its progression, it is not extending that PrC to Epic Class status (i.e. 11th level or more for a PrC). So that rule doesn't apply.

I'm referring more to this passage:



So "other class features" includes everything except BAB and saves, including bonus feats.




Andargor

But as a normal class feature (i.e., the PR class grants bonus metamagic feats) it does not allow the taking of an epic level feat. The character must always meet the prerequisites for a feat in order to take it. The epic feats are epic and metamagic (sometimes).

Hence the character can not take an epic feat as one of his class allowed ones. Otherwise an epic character (17th level fighter, 5th level wizard) could take epic feats with his wizard class bonus feats. Not allowed.

 

[andargor]

But as a normal class feature (i.e., the PR class grants bonus metamagic feats) it does not allow the taking of an epic level feat. The character must always meet the prerequisites for a feat in order to take it. The epic feats are epic and metamagic (sometimes).

Hence the character can not take an epic feat as one of his class allowed ones. Otherwise an epic character (17th level fighter, 5th level wizard) could take epic feats with his wizard class bonus feats. Not allowed.

This is where we disagree. I can't find a reference indicating that, if you are an epic character, you may not take an epic feat as a bonus feat during a class' non-epic levels (20 or less for base classes, or 10 or less from PrCs).

I understand your arguments, but they are based on the "exception" quote you made earlier, and that applies to Epic Classes (classes that are more than 20th level for base classes, more than 10th level for PrCs), and not for epic characters taking levels in non-epic classes.

Unless you pretend that a 20th level fighter which then takes 1 level of Wizard does not gain spells per day?

Like I said, I may be missing something, but if there's a pertinent quote on this (and I haven't seen one yet), please provide it.

Andargor

 

[irdeggman]

How about this one:

"ACQUIRING EPIC FEATS
Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class."

This is not the exception - this is the rule.

Under each epic class it lists which epic feats are allowed as bonus feats. An epic character can also use his epic level character level feats to gain epic level feats.


If you notice the reference is to standard class abilities. This does not include gaining epic feats.

There is a reason that the epic feats are listed as epic and metamagic (when applicable). The meet both requirements. And the requirements for gaining epic feats are those listed in the quote above. Feats in the PHB are listed as General, item creation and metamagic. Divine feats werre added in subsequent books. They are not listed as General-metamagic. Fighter feats are annotated with a superscript and note stating these feats are available as bonuse feats for the class

When the epic wizard advances he gains bonus epic feats (or non-epic level wizard feats).

Now if you notice I didn't say that the character couldn't acquire the epic feat as his normal epic level progression feat (as long as he meets the requirements - notably ranks) - all I said was that he couldn't gain an epic feat as part of his normal class progression (i.e., non-epic level).