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3.5 Perform, Diplomacy
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<blockquote data-quote="BSF" data-source="post: 1003429" data-attributes="member: 13098"><p>Wow! I came here looking to lurk and find out if anyone else had any thoughts on the perform skill changes. I've been lurking for years! Usually, all of you have rehashed a point beyond where I have anything of any real value to say. I read your debates, come away with more enlightenment and I am happy. But, now I find myself registering and jumping into the fray, so to speak.</p><p></p><p>As you can guess, I play a Bard! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> But, I also DM. Two games a week, one a player with one group, the other as the DM with a completely different group. I am trying to balance my viewpoint with both perspectives in mind, but it will definitely sound more like the player's view.</p><p></p><p>For me, the "problems" become reasonably concise. </p><p></p><p>Look at Inspire Courage (and Inspire Greatness and presumably Inspire Heroics). If you want to effectively fight and help the group, you will take Perform (Sing) and you will max it out to gain the benefits at higher levels. </p><p></p><p>If you want to sit out the combat and play your instrument to help out, the rest of the party will look at you funny and may get a little mad.</p><p></p><p>Look at Countersong. If you want to benefit the party with the (potentially) better saving throw when those harpies fly up and start charming your friends, while you are on a road that runs along a cliff, you will have maxed out Perform (Sing)</p><p></p><p>These two situations will pretty much assure that all Bards max out Perform (Sing). Not really a problem! And if you don't worry about silly Roleplay considerations, that is all you need to max out. All combat Bards will be singers, or possibly chanters, or something that does NOT involve using your hands. </p><p></p><p>Let me be clear, this is not a BAD thing! But, there are musical instruments. Many of which require a certain amount of skill ranks to play. Don't pretend that the "extra" skill points given to the Bard are anything more than to cover the cost of these "new" skills. </p><p></p><p>Yes, I said new skills. Essentially, that is what it is. I admit that the skill mechanic was flawed. Badly in some cases! The only way to keep that mechanic in check was through roleplaying. Adding a game mechanic is nice, in it's own way. </p><p></p><p>The categories are both too broad, and too limiting. While my character has Brehon Storytelling, I suppose that should now be rolled into Oratory. Even though he only learned, in game, through roleplaying, a very formalized method of storytelling. At least poetry rolls into Oratory. While my character knows how to play a bodhran, he will also know how to play the Kettledrums. And technically, the piano is a percussion instrument, while the harpsichord is a string instrument. Now, they roll into Keyboard instruments? <em>(Yes, I know, anything played with keys should be a keyboard instrument. Accordians, harpsichords, organs and pianos all. But, ask a music major and you will find that they are not considered the same thing.)</em> Since my character knows how to play the whistle, he should now play all wind instruments with the same skill? And he spent time learning the fiddle, mandolin, lute and harp. Now they are all the same too. And then there is dance...</p><p></p><p>In game mechanic terms, all of these fit in nicely under one skill. Was it "realistic" that he can do them all with the same finesse? Maybe, but probably not. On the other hand, if he picked up a crumhorn, he could only use his CHA modifier as his skill check. The mechanic wasn't perfect, but it wasn't entirely "broken" either. I daresay, a crumhorm is considerably different from a tin whistle in terms of how you play them. </p><p></p><p>In some ways, the new skills are just as "broken" as the old. You can argue that it is "more" realistic. Perhaps it is. But, what constant affect does it have on the game? The only affect it has is to determine which abilities you get to use, how effective your Countersong is, and which magical instruments you get to play. The last one is the big wildcard. </p><p></p><p>At least Perform (Stringed Instruments) will pretty much cover all the <em>Instruments of the Bards</em>. But, it won't cover any pipes at all. Or drums. If you want to use all the above, add in more skills that you are using. Those 2 bonus skill points shuold cover it. </p><p></p><p>Of course, when you first saw that Bards were getting extra skill points, you thought you were going to be more useful to the party didn't you? Maybe a new Knowledge skill? Perhaps a few more ranks in Use Magic Device? Heck, maybe even a few more languages! Especially if you are in an established campaign and might have a few magical instruments. </p><p></p><p>That is where the problem really arises isn't it? All of us with established characters, in established campaigns, thought we would have a few skill points to pick up another skill or two. We didn't realize it was just going to be new Perform skills. </p><p></p><p>Think about it for a moment. Now, a 5th level bard really isn't all that much more useful in 3.5 than he or she was in 3.0. Until they get those new abilities, at higher levels, they really haven't improved any. Less armor, some spells you no longer have, some nerfed buff spells in exchange for new abilities later on and a slightly greater range of weapons. A 10th level Bard is a bit more cool. A 15th level bard is better. It all depends on where you were when your campaign converts. And only because of the new Bardic Music abilities. Nothing else about the class seems to have improved. Except that they now prefer to specialize in enchantments and illusions. Whether that was what your Bard did before, or not. </p><p></p><p>I am disappointed in the changes. I agree that Perform is broken in 3.0. But, it is simple to play. Perform in 3.5 might be a little less broken, but it is still broken. The changes made to Perform did not address the widely held view that Bard's have too few skill points in 3.0. If you want to be good at a variety of Perform types, you gain no benefit from the added skill points. And, in many cases, you will have a variety of numbers to look up when you use a perform check. (DM: Ok, make a perform check. Player: Ok, let me see, if that is singing, I have a +8, but if it is stringed instruments, it is +11.) The game just got a little more complicated to play. The good news, is that you don't need to worry that the King prefers the sound of the harp. If you have stringed instruments, you are covered. (Whereas, in the past, you might have had lute and mandolin, but not enough ranks to have taken harp yet.)</p><p></p><p>I can see an arguement that this change forces more diversity in Bards. And in a world where you have 20-30 instruments/perform types, that is true. But, if you use a wider range of perform types (Formalized storytelling styles, chants, singing, a wide variety of instruments, a variety of formalized dances, etc.) the diversity just dropped. </p><p></p><p>Unfortunately, I don't have a "solution". As I said, I consider both 3.0 and 3.5 mechanics to be flawed. Both have strengths and weaknesses. However, the change in 3.5 Perform probably negate the skill point bonuses for the bard. And that is what I don't like. </p><p></p><p>Will this keep me from buying the books? Heck no! It will mean that I keep my eye out for an easy, elegant solution to ease a conversion and adoption of the 3.5 rules for the Bard and for Perform.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BSF, post: 1003429, member: 13098"] Wow! I came here looking to lurk and find out if anyone else had any thoughts on the perform skill changes. I've been lurking for years! Usually, all of you have rehashed a point beyond where I have anything of any real value to say. I read your debates, come away with more enlightenment and I am happy. But, now I find myself registering and jumping into the fray, so to speak. As you can guess, I play a Bard! :) But, I also DM. Two games a week, one a player with one group, the other as the DM with a completely different group. I am trying to balance my viewpoint with both perspectives in mind, but it will definitely sound more like the player's view. For me, the "problems" become reasonably concise. Look at Inspire Courage (and Inspire Greatness and presumably Inspire Heroics). If you want to effectively fight and help the group, you will take Perform (Sing) and you will max it out to gain the benefits at higher levels. If you want to sit out the combat and play your instrument to help out, the rest of the party will look at you funny and may get a little mad. Look at Countersong. If you want to benefit the party with the (potentially) better saving throw when those harpies fly up and start charming your friends, while you are on a road that runs along a cliff, you will have maxed out Perform (Sing) These two situations will pretty much assure that all Bards max out Perform (Sing). Not really a problem! And if you don't worry about silly Roleplay considerations, that is all you need to max out. All combat Bards will be singers, or possibly chanters, or something that does NOT involve using your hands. Let me be clear, this is not a BAD thing! But, there are musical instruments. Many of which require a certain amount of skill ranks to play. Don't pretend that the "extra" skill points given to the Bard are anything more than to cover the cost of these "new" skills. Yes, I said new skills. Essentially, that is what it is. I admit that the skill mechanic was flawed. Badly in some cases! The only way to keep that mechanic in check was through roleplaying. Adding a game mechanic is nice, in it's own way. The categories are both too broad, and too limiting. While my character has Brehon Storytelling, I suppose that should now be rolled into Oratory. Even though he only learned, in game, through roleplaying, a very formalized method of storytelling. At least poetry rolls into Oratory. While my character knows how to play a bodhran, he will also know how to play the Kettledrums. And technically, the piano is a percussion instrument, while the harpsichord is a string instrument. Now, they roll into Keyboard instruments? [i](Yes, I know, anything played with keys should be a keyboard instrument. Accordians, harpsichords, organs and pianos all. But, ask a music major and you will find that they are not considered the same thing.)[/i] Since my character knows how to play the whistle, he should now play all wind instruments with the same skill? And he spent time learning the fiddle, mandolin, lute and harp. Now they are all the same too. And then there is dance... In game mechanic terms, all of these fit in nicely under one skill. Was it "realistic" that he can do them all with the same finesse? Maybe, but probably not. On the other hand, if he picked up a crumhorn, he could only use his CHA modifier as his skill check. The mechanic wasn't perfect, but it wasn't entirely "broken" either. I daresay, a crumhorm is considerably different from a tin whistle in terms of how you play them. In some ways, the new skills are just as "broken" as the old. You can argue that it is "more" realistic. Perhaps it is. But, what constant affect does it have on the game? The only affect it has is to determine which abilities you get to use, how effective your Countersong is, and which magical instruments you get to play. The last one is the big wildcard. At least Perform (Stringed Instruments) will pretty much cover all the [i]Instruments of the Bards[/i]. But, it won't cover any pipes at all. Or drums. If you want to use all the above, add in more skills that you are using. Those 2 bonus skill points shuold cover it. Of course, when you first saw that Bards were getting extra skill points, you thought you were going to be more useful to the party didn't you? Maybe a new Knowledge skill? Perhaps a few more ranks in Use Magic Device? Heck, maybe even a few more languages! Especially if you are in an established campaign and might have a few magical instruments. That is where the problem really arises isn't it? All of us with established characters, in established campaigns, thought we would have a few skill points to pick up another skill or two. We didn't realize it was just going to be new Perform skills. Think about it for a moment. Now, a 5th level bard really isn't all that much more useful in 3.5 than he or she was in 3.0. Until they get those new abilities, at higher levels, they really haven't improved any. Less armor, some spells you no longer have, some nerfed buff spells in exchange for new abilities later on and a slightly greater range of weapons. A 10th level Bard is a bit more cool. A 15th level bard is better. It all depends on where you were when your campaign converts. And only because of the new Bardic Music abilities. Nothing else about the class seems to have improved. Except that they now prefer to specialize in enchantments and illusions. Whether that was what your Bard did before, or not. I am disappointed in the changes. I agree that Perform is broken in 3.0. But, it is simple to play. Perform in 3.5 might be a little less broken, but it is still broken. The changes made to Perform did not address the widely held view that Bard's have too few skill points in 3.0. If you want to be good at a variety of Perform types, you gain no benefit from the added skill points. And, in many cases, you will have a variety of numbers to look up when you use a perform check. (DM: Ok, make a perform check. Player: Ok, let me see, if that is singing, I have a +8, but if it is stringed instruments, it is +11.) The game just got a little more complicated to play. The good news, is that you don't need to worry that the King prefers the sound of the harp. If you have stringed instruments, you are covered. (Whereas, in the past, you might have had lute and mandolin, but not enough ranks to have taken harp yet.) I can see an arguement that this change forces more diversity in Bards. And in a world where you have 20-30 instruments/perform types, that is true. But, if you use a wider range of perform types (Formalized storytelling styles, chants, singing, a wide variety of instruments, a variety of formalized dances, etc.) the diversity just dropped. Unfortunately, I don't have a "solution". As I said, I consider both 3.0 and 3.5 mechanics to be flawed. Both have strengths and weaknesses. However, the change in 3.5 Perform probably negate the skill point bonuses for the bard. And that is what I don't like. Will this keep me from buying the books? Heck no! It will mean that I keep my eye out for an easy, elegant solution to ease a conversion and adoption of the 3.5 rules for the Bard and for Perform. [/QUOTE]
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