Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
3.5 Perform, Diplomacy
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 992649" data-attributes="member: 7211"><p>3.0 Brd8: Perform (Singing, Chanting, Lute, Mandolin, Lyre, Guitar, Bass, Viola, Harp, Fiddle, Banjolele) +11 + Cha modifier</p><p></p><p>[With help form Song and Silence] </p><p></p><p>with 3 skill points/level left over.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>3.5 Brd8: Perform (Sing, Stringed Instruments) +11 + Cha modifier</p><p></p><p>with 4 skill points/level left over.</p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>I think you are using excessive vague-ness to try and win this point. Lets start with the fighter. We'll take 12th level, its a good level to base our theories on. A 12th level fighter is not a "master" of every normal weapon in the world. He can wield a dagger as well as a longsword, a longsword as well as a bastard sword (2-handed), and so forth. But what does that mean? Well, for it to mean anything we have to compare it to challenges he will be facing as a 12th level fighter. Oh wait, the game is almost entirely balanced to facilitate a level-based system and the fighter not necessarily a master by 12th level (or really, ever).</p><p></p><p>A 12th level fighter does in fact get 3 attacks with any weapon of his choosing. The fact of the matter is, those attacks are designed to let him keep up with other characters in terms of damage output and challenge overcoming. I can accept that if I were trained with a sword, and only a sword, by the end of my training I could pick up a dagger, a pick, or any other "normal" weapon and perform adequately. Since I probably spent feats on the sword, I would naturally use it most of the time - I prefer it.</p><p></p><p>Now lets peek at perform. The game is NOT built around perform, and while it may occasionally bypass challenges, for the most part it is considered little more than a roleplaying decision, primarily for bard characters (much like obscure knowledge is for a wizard, or professions and crafts are for everyone else). But the 12th level bard is "only" a master of 15 instruments (instead of categories of instruments, as in 3.5). The fighter can use more normal weapons. What gives!!! But what is the bard the master of? Which does he favor? The game isnt built with this in mind, so there is no Instrument Focus, Instrument Specialization, etc - the bard is equally good with all instruments he has selected. We'll ignore that having primarily focused on stringed instruments the bard decides to pick up dancing, singing, and horn-playing in one level. We'll accept that suddenly, those skills will be just as good as all the others which have been being honed since 1st level. Wait, this example <em>still</em> isnt really like a fighter, not when you start actually looking at it.</p><p></p><p>However each weapon is manipulated by using by and large one of 3 styles: slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning. Can the same be said of musical instruments "in 3e"? No. In 3.5? Yes. When one "style" applies, the perform check for all of those styles is used. For instance - Stringed Instruments would apply to all the instruments listed in the above example as well as any other stringed instruments the bard comes across. </p><p></p><p>As others have pointed out, we dont have perform down to the science of having simple instruments, martial instruments, and exotic instruments - there is no penalty for choosing any one instrument over another, in fact in 3.5 you usually get more than 1 instrument for your trouble. The same cannot be said of the wizard who chooses to spend a feat (which is worth far more than a skillpoint) on martial weapon - longsword. The wizard doesnt gain proficiency with many weapons, merely 1. Is martial weapon proficiency "broken"?</p><p></p><p>I am weary of these backs-and-forths. By nature I can be a combative person, and if I have caused anyone undue amounts of stress than I am sorry. I was merely discussing a matter which seemed so obvious to me, that in my bafflement I continued to post. I see now that those who oppose me will do so no matter what evidence is presented, no matter what angle used to discuss, so I admit defeat. I will question those people on one thing: Which do you think is better for the game?</p><p></p><p>Not your game, not people on ENWorld's game, but the game in general. Which is a better system for a new player, or a player from 2e, or in other words - the average gamer. I am content that the new system is more intuitive and easier to use than the older system. Can you say the same about the older version?</p><p></p><p>Technik</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Technik4, post: 992649, member: 7211"] 3.0 Brd8: Perform (Singing, Chanting, Lute, Mandolin, Lyre, Guitar, Bass, Viola, Harp, Fiddle, Banjolele) +11 + Cha modifier [With help form Song and Silence] with 3 skill points/level left over. 3.5 Brd8: Perform (Sing, Stringed Instruments) +11 + Cha modifier with 4 skill points/level left over. I think you are using excessive vague-ness to try and win this point. Lets start with the fighter. We'll take 12th level, its a good level to base our theories on. A 12th level fighter is not a "master" of every normal weapon in the world. He can wield a dagger as well as a longsword, a longsword as well as a bastard sword (2-handed), and so forth. But what does that mean? Well, for it to mean anything we have to compare it to challenges he will be facing as a 12th level fighter. Oh wait, the game is almost entirely balanced to facilitate a level-based system and the fighter not necessarily a master by 12th level (or really, ever). A 12th level fighter does in fact get 3 attacks with any weapon of his choosing. The fact of the matter is, those attacks are designed to let him keep up with other characters in terms of damage output and challenge overcoming. I can accept that if I were trained with a sword, and only a sword, by the end of my training I could pick up a dagger, a pick, or any other "normal" weapon and perform adequately. Since I probably spent feats on the sword, I would naturally use it most of the time - I prefer it. Now lets peek at perform. The game is NOT built around perform, and while it may occasionally bypass challenges, for the most part it is considered little more than a roleplaying decision, primarily for bard characters (much like obscure knowledge is for a wizard, or professions and crafts are for everyone else). But the 12th level bard is "only" a master of 15 instruments (instead of categories of instruments, as in 3.5). The fighter can use more normal weapons. What gives!!! But what is the bard the master of? Which does he favor? The game isnt built with this in mind, so there is no Instrument Focus, Instrument Specialization, etc - the bard is equally good with all instruments he has selected. We'll ignore that having primarily focused on stringed instruments the bard decides to pick up dancing, singing, and horn-playing in one level. We'll accept that suddenly, those skills will be just as good as all the others which have been being honed since 1st level. Wait, this example [i]still[/i] isnt really like a fighter, not when you start actually looking at it. However each weapon is manipulated by using by and large one of 3 styles: slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning. Can the same be said of musical instruments "in 3e"? No. In 3.5? Yes. When one "style" applies, the perform check for all of those styles is used. For instance - Stringed Instruments would apply to all the instruments listed in the above example as well as any other stringed instruments the bard comes across. As others have pointed out, we dont have perform down to the science of having simple instruments, martial instruments, and exotic instruments - there is no penalty for choosing any one instrument over another, in fact in 3.5 you usually get more than 1 instrument for your trouble. The same cannot be said of the wizard who chooses to spend a feat (which is worth far more than a skillpoint) on martial weapon - longsword. The wizard doesnt gain proficiency with many weapons, merely 1. Is martial weapon proficiency "broken"? I am weary of these backs-and-forths. By nature I can be a combative person, and if I have caused anyone undue amounts of stress than I am sorry. I was merely discussing a matter which seemed so obvious to me, that in my bafflement I continued to post. I see now that those who oppose me will do so no matter what evidence is presented, no matter what angle used to discuss, so I admit defeat. I will question those people on one thing: Which do you think is better for the game? Not your game, not people on ENWorld's game, but the game in general. Which is a better system for a new player, or a player from 2e, or in other words - the average gamer. I am content that the new system is more intuitive and easier to use than the older system. Can you say the same about the older version? Technik [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
3.5 Perform, Diplomacy
Top