[3.5] Revision Spotlight - Druid class

[Psion]

R: Oh, i will admit the Druid as stands is better in the outdoors than in relative to itself. I'm just not seeing any absolute advantage against other classes, especially spellcasters, even in the optimum environment.

Right, but remember the context of this conversation: is the druid getting "too much". The talk was that the druid was going to be more optimized for the dungeon. How much more optimized, we don't know yet, but if the differences in power afterwards are only minor in the dungeon, and they are more effective outdoors, then I worry that the druid is getting too much.

Now perhaps most of these optimizations might refer to things like the spontaneous call nature's ally and the wildshape into shambling mounds and we have little to fear from the spell list. But if they are shored up here where we can see the changes, and the spell list is strongly beefed up as well, that might put the druid over the top balance-wise.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

So what does everyone think about the one animal companion limit? (Andy Collins confirmed this on his boards)

Probably means more power to the animal companion, but it looks like no more Beastmaster clones: two weasels, a hawk, and a mountain lion (well, aside from PrCs). Kind of sad; I always liked the idea of a druid with a horde of little animals whose skills all complimented each other.

 

[Psion]

So what does everyone think about the one animal companion limit (Andy Collins confirmed this on his boards)?

It's confirmed. Sounds like another house rule. But this one's not as easy... hmmm.

Probably means more power to the animal companion, but it looks like no more Beastmaster clones: two weasels, a hawk, and a mountain lion (well, aside from PrCs). Kind of sad; I always liked the idea of a druid with a horde of little animals whose skills all complimented each other.

Ditto.

 

[TheRaven]

My dear friends. I'd like to write down only one word here about the new wildshape, that has been overlooked so far:

attack routine

Ok, two words actually. However, old D&D 3E fans like myself might remember the history of polymorph/wildshape but for those not familiar with it, let's take a look at it.

1. D&D 3E PHB first printing
Wildshape works like polymorph. Attack routine is gained. Wizards and sorcerer polymorphing themselves into Marilith and other "popular" creatures, unleashing hell. Druids happy with their animals.

2. D&D 3E PHB second printing
Wildshape works like polymorph. Attack routine is a no no. Restrictions to creature types and other stuff. Mages still happy with polymorph due to other weaknesses with that darn spell. Druids not happy. Why should they ? The best ability of animals IS the attack routine. The idea of WotC, that wildshape should be a way to help out druids in combat is nothing more than a mere joke.

3. D&D 3E Tome&Blood
Wildshape like polymorph. Still. Damn. Polymorph was a little bit changed to fix the still existing "exploits". Mages are now ok with the spell. As it should be. Druids jumping from bridges not wanting to live anymore. But wait, there is hope. MotW is to be released soon.

4. D&D 3E Masters of the Wild
Wildshape like ... wait a second. Ha, wildshape stand alone. Hey, they actually reacted to the bridge jumping druids. Oh joy. You get attack routine as well as the other stuff you are supposed to have. Mages don't care. Druids happy. Ok, they are mostly happy anyway because of their "special" herbs if you know what I'm talking about.

5. D&D 3E PHB 3.5
Wildshape like polymorph. Hmm, oooook. Attack routine ? We'll have to wait and see but I think Druids could become unhappy again.

 

[woodelf]

Look, my logic is simple. If one archetype is not as popular as others, then they are using the wrong archetype, true. But the mechanical end also has to be considered. Are you suggesting that no one chooses not to play a class because they are underpowered? Or if the viable combat options aren't tactically interesting? [snip] When I look at a class, I look at how much fun it is to play over the large series of combats that will await me. A DM can integrate utility stuff for any class, and utility powers tend to be very binary. Combat is where the game is at its best, and I think many others would agree with me.

i think they miss a bet by using combat as the baseline when balancing. Frex, the new druid looks, tentatively, less interesting to me. One of the things i like about druids is i can have cool stuff to do and be useful to the group *without* being useful in combat. I don't care if druids are underpowered in combat (not that that's ever been my experience in any edition...), i want them to be flexible. I understand that this is D&D, and that combat needs to be factored in, i just don't think it should be the *only* thing they consider, or even the overriding.

edit: Oh, just as anecdotal counter-evidence: i've had players choose not to play a character because they were [perceived as] under-powered. But i've had a lot more players choose not to play a class because they were seen as non-flexible. Frex, never seen a PC fighter under 3E, though those were plenty popular in earlier editions. Even those who want to fight aren't generally willing to give up *everything* else (and with the paucity of non-combat feats available to the fighter in core 3E, combined with the skills issue, they really can't do much of anything else) just to do so--they play barbarians or rangers, or paladins. Or a cleric, in one case.

 

[Suldulin]

like I said on another thread:

I really, really, really dislike them tying wildshape back into polymorph, it's taking a step back.

I also dislike that nature sense seems to no longer be able to tell if water is safe to drink(unless that's been added to the survival skill?)

otherwise I like

 

[Malikai2000]

like I said on another thread:

I really, really, really dislike them tying wildshape back into polymorph, it's taking a step back.

I also dislike that nature sense seems to no longer be able to tell if water is safe to drink(unless that's been added to the survival skill?)

otherwise I like

I think they are tying wildshape back into poly to simplify the rules. That way they are both treated with a single set of rules.


I certainly hope they do add 'water safety' to the survival skill.