D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Sleep = full round action!

[Nail]

I just stumbled across one of Plane Sailing's post, and he clued me in. I know most of you have probably already noticed this....I'm just flabergasted.

Behold, the nerfed 1st level spell! Now, after years of market research, this spell is safe for use with young children and monsters!

Sleep
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: One or more living creatures within a 10-ft.-radius burst
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell’s point of origin are affected first. Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted.

Sleeping creatures are helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).

Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures. Material Component: A pinch of fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket.

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, I noticed. I just didn't think it was worth another comment after they screwed the spell already anyhow.

 

[Zhure]

.. and it's a flat 4 HD, no longer 2d4. At least the 3e version there was some miniscule hope of having it be a worthwhile spell when Rangers finally got it available to cast it when they reach 8th level.

Oh, wait, the 3.5 Ranger doesn't get Sleep. Nevermind.

 

[Nail]

.. and it's a flat 4 HD, no longer 2d4. At least the 3e version there was some miniscule hope of having it be a worthwhile spell when Rangers finally got it available to cast it when they reach 8th level.

Oh, wait, the 3.5 Ranger doesn't get Sleep. Nevermind.

Ah, but some 3.5e monsters do, as a spell-like ability!

Look! It's amazing! The feared Ogre Mage (CR 8) can now use an entire round to cast Sleep on a party of 8th level adventurers! The PC's are toast!


But seriously, what, by all that's unholy, were the designers thinking on this one?

It's true the spell was good, even a must have for 1st level wizards (though not sorcerers!). Perhaps it needed a "refit". But this, boys and girls, is not it. Not by a long shot.

The problem with this spell occured at low levels, when the monsters might (heaven forbid) use it on 4 1st level PCs and commit a "virtual" TPK. (Which I have, ahem, already done in 3.0e. Heh, heh.) So what might be the solution? Easy: limit the number of targets at low levels. Perhaps 1 per two levels? The long range means it shouldn't effect as many as color spray, at least initially.

Then, if you'd like, limit it to 2d4 HD. My feeling is that it's unnecessary die-rolling. Just make the spell "cap" at 4HD. Or, make the sleep last less time.

Why can't this spell be made less powerful at 1st level, but be scaleable to higher levels? Why wasn't that the fix?

 

[Zhure]

I've taken it for a couple of sorcerers. It's just one of those that tends to be a lot less worthwhile at higher levels. Even so, I had an 8th level Sorcerer use it effectively in combat with a lucky roll, and a high level Sorcerer use it on guards and merchants when diplomacy failed.


Greg

 

[der_kluge]

So, someone clue me, what effectively is the difference between a 1 round casting, and a 1 action casting. In the latter, I guess any damage they take from the time they starting casting, to the next round could disrupt the spell? Is that the way that would work?

And I agree with Nail on this. The spell becomes completely useless after about 3rd level. Obviously, the designers didn't want people putting dragons to sleep, but still a little more scalability would have made this a much better spell.

 

[jgsugden]

They'd axe this spell entirely if they could, but too many people consider it a 'standard' and would have objected to the complete removal.

This is a first level spell that completely removes a foe (or multiple foes) from combat. That is too powerful, even when limited to just low HD enemies. The effect is so strong that they had to limit it as much as possible to keep it close to balanced.

A 1st through 5th level character can make good use of the spell. Beyond that point, the spell becomes a waste. Fortunately, wizards have other 1st level spells and sorcerers can now 'unlearn' it.

If you want a balanced and useful version of this spell from 6th level to 10th level, check out deep slumber (3rd level spell). Still a full round casting time, but it can get up to 10 HD.

 

[Zhure]

So, someone clue me, what effectively is the difference between a 1 round casting, and a 1 action casting. In the latter, I guess any damage they take from the time they starting casting, to the next round could disrupt the spell? Is that the way that would work?

And I agree with Nail on this. The spell becomes completely useless after about 3rd level. Obviously, the designers didn't want people putting dragons to sleep, but still a little more scalability would have made this a much better spell.

A 1 round casting means it doesn't go off until the casters next initiative click, so a full round of getting pummeled can happen between starting and finishing the spell. See the PHB 3.5, page 174.
Greg

 

[Plane Sailing]

The old 1e version of Sleep must have given them fits - 4d4 HD of creatures put out with no saving throw! The awesome power of wizards! Gaze in wonder!

Seriously, I can't see the purpose in nerfing this spell into uselessness. It can't even be empowered now!

As it was, it gave a wizard the opportunity to dramatically change the odds in a single fight at low level (and he's only got a couple of spells anyway, so they *ought* to be better than a sword blow!). it also gave pacifist mages an opportunity to do something worthwhile.

Still, we can sleep safely knowing it has now been "fixed". Oh no, we can't can we? That's the point...

 

[Nail]

.....This is a first level spell that completely removes a foe (or multiple foes) from combat. That is too powerful, even when limited to just low HD enemies. The effect is so strong that they had to limit it as much as possible to keep it close to balanced....

Right, and I can agree with the need for "better" balance. It's the execution that I disagree with, and strongly. With 3.5e, this spell becomes useful only for those with much preparation and surprise....and at low level, who is that likely to be: the PCs or the Monsters?

5 points for the correct answer.

A full round spell means that the caster uses all of his actions (standard and movement) for one round, and then has to hope that no one bothers him until his next turn. The spell goes off right before his next turn. At 1st thru 3rd level, hoping that you'll make it through a round withour disturbance is......far-fetched.

A 1st through 5th level character can make good use of the spell. Beyond that point, the spell becomes a waste. Fortunately, wizards have other 1st level spells and sorcerers can now 'unlearn' it.

Exactly. This is the 2nd problem with the spell, both in 3.0e and 3.5e. Why not address both the "balance" issue and the "scalable" issue at the same time? It is possible!

If you want a balanced and useful version of this spell from 6th level to 10th level, check out deep slumber (3rd level spell). Still a full round casting time, but it can get up to 10 HD.

I disagree. Deep slumber is also poorly designed, for the same reasons sleep is. And it should have been called "Greater Sleep" or some such nonsense, to make comparisons between it and sleep easier to do. After all, the description of Deep Slumber relies on the text of the sleep spell, meaning you have to page back and forth between them. (See how restoration, greater restoration, and lesser restoration do it? Easy, huh?) Bad design on Deep Slumber and Sleep, again.