D&D 3.x 3.5 Sorcerer Nerf?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, you have to admit that it's a bit weird that they spell it out clearly in 3.0, but you have to hunt to find it in 3.5. Why do that, unless you wanted the rules to work differently? I'm not saying they do, but it's a reasonable conclusion to come to.

What I think he's looking for is either a reason why the rule is moved, or a good reason not to believe it's been changed since they went to all the trouble of moving it out of the sorcerer section.

 

[Trainz]

I'll grant you all that Dr., and I agree. Still, it's a foergone conclusion that all spellcasters can do it, as it is written in the PHB (granted, in the divine spells sections).

There's stuff in the books that is much more questionable than this. In comparison, this one is pretty obvious.

 

[Felonius]

I don't get you. Your original post seems to complain that sorcerors can't do it under 3.5, then I tell you they can, but instead of jumping with joy and renewed bliss at then news, you keep denying it.

Don't get me wrong, I *do* want it to work as in 3.0. I just want the rules to back me up on this. There are some DMs around here who are certain that 3.5 removed this ability from spontaneous casters on purpose and I am not entirely convinced that it is not either...

What is it exactly that you want ?

What I think he's looking for is either a reason why the rule is moved, or a good reason not to believe it's been changed since they went to all the trouble of moving it out of the sorcerer section.

My good doctor is also correct.

Also compare these (from SRD class entries):

3.0
"A sorcerer may use a higher-level slot to cast a lower-level spell if he so chooses. The spell is still treated as its actual level, not the level of the slot used to cast it."

3.5
The above is not there, instead we get:
"Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast."

(emphasis mine again)

- F

 

[Trainz]

Well, if you find a DM mean enough to not let you use it as 3.0, you can point out to him that in 3.0 it stated it like that, and since they don't say they can't do it in 3.5, one can assume that it didn't change, ESPECIALLY since it is written, black and white, in the 3.5 PH (no matter WHERE it is written) that SPELLCASTERS can do it.

Spock would be tearing his hair out. It's so logical it's blindingly so.

And if that doesn't do it, you can send the rogue DM to me, I will have a little talk with him, and try to make him see the proverbial light. Unless he wants to HOUSE RULE it, then all bets are off.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I'd suggest posing this specific question to the support staff at WotC or look for a sage ruling. Have you checked the FAQs?

I'm sure it works the same way. I don't know WHY any DM would willingly nerf a Sorc, though. That's just cruel.

--fje

 

[Henry]

Not only that, most of the designers of modules, web enhancements, and supplements seem to think it hasn't changed either, so I'd go with the assumption that it became unclear when they were trying to simplify the wording.

Can't catch 'em all (unless you're John Cooper)

 

[KarinsDad]

Felonius,

You can set your mind at rest. First off, you were correct. You should ignore the divine spell caster section because it does not apply to arcane spell casting at all.

You do, however, pay attention to the arcane section where:

1) Sorcerers and Bards cast arcane spells.
2) Sorcerers and Bards use spell slots.
3) Arcane spell slots are defined in the Preparing Wizard Spells section under Arcane Spells. There it states that lower level spells can be placed into higher level slots.

Just because arcane spell slots are not defined in the Sorcerers And Bards section does not mean that the rules for them do not apply. They do.

 

[Felonius]

3) Arcane spell slots are defined in the Preparing Wizard Spells section under Arcane Spells. There it states that lower level spells can be placed into higher level slots.

The argument used against this paragraph is that it talks about "filling" spell slots, i.e. preparing? Spontaneus casters do not fill spell slots, they just have this level spells that many times per day.

Plus to make things even more unclear, it says this under Sorcerer class description:

"Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level."
(emphasis mine)

Argh!

- F

 

[Felonius]

Not only that, most of the designers of modules, web enhancements, and supplements seem to think it hasn't changed either, so I'd go with the assumption that it became unclear when they were trying to simplify the wording.

Almost everyone, including me, seems to think this has not changed, but now I'm no longer so sure. 3.0 said it very very clearly and I can't see how anyone would "clarify" the explanation by removing it...

Can't catch 'em all (unless you're John Cooper)

I think John and Hypersmurf need to comment on this.

In any case, I'll continue playing as it was in 3.0. Sorcerers need all breaks they can get...

- F

 

[KarinsDad]

The argument used against this paragraph is that it talks about "filling" spell slots, i.e. preparing? Spontaneus casters do not fill spell slots, they just have this level spells that many times per day.

Who says that "fill a spell slot" means preparing?

I say it means put a spell in there for use as per the general definition of the word "fill". This is done instantaneously by a Sorcerer.

You can interpret fill to mean prepare and only prepare, but the book does not state that. If it meant prepare there, it should have stated prepare. Prepare has a specific meaning in the game and the word prepare is not used in this sentence.

You are also missing other quotes from the Spell Slot section that are STILL applicable to Sorcerers such as:

"A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level."

If they had meant Wizards only here, they would have stated Int instead of "ability score".

And it is nonsensical that Sorcerers and Bards lose their higher level slots for not having a high enough ability score whereas all OTHER spell casters (i.e. clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and wizards) do not.

Plus to make things even more unclear, it says this under Sorcerer class description:

"Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level."
(emphasis mine)

This is the only rule that supports your interpretation. However, this can be interpreted two ways based on the rest of the rules:

1) Your way. That spell level slot and that spell level slot only can be used for spells of that spell level and that spell level only.

2) My way. Any spell level which is applicable. So, if a Sorcerer has a second level spell slot and the rules of spell slots indicate he can put a first level spell in that slot, then that IS a legitimate spell for "that spell level".

Or putting specifics into this sentence:

"He can cast any spell he knows [of zero, first, or second] at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level [second]."

My interpretation is just as valid as yours with the English language.


Another note on this sentence: "a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance". This means he can if he wants to, so your "fill" argument is null and void.


If the authors had meant to change such a significant aspect of Sorcerers (and Bards), they would have explicitly put in an unambiguous sentence of:

"A bard or sorcerer cannot put a lower level spell into a higher level spell slot."

They did not do this, hence, I suspect you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.


The problem here is that they did put in an ambiguous sentence in the Sorcerers section (the Bard's section states "the spell level" instead of "that spell level" btw).

It happens.