3.5 Sources

[InzeladunMaster]

I'm of the general opinion that most books are published for DMs with too little time or players with too much money.

I disagree. Using multiple resources is time consuming in and of itself. I find their use to be one of efficiency; why should I invent a wheel if someone else has already done it for me? I also find their use to be one of inspiration; sometimes I figure out ways to reverse engineer an idea I sort of like and turn it into something I adore. I have found that when I am short on time, I either stick to the core books, or use no books at all. The books are time consuming. But they are nice because someone thinks the rules are balanced well enough for play - I get nervous about some player created material, as I have doubts about my ability to make a solid adjudication about it (I have much more faith in Bob and Chris to make a good judgement than in myself).

As for players, I find the purchase of books to a sign of excitement about the game, indicitive of a desire to add to the world, add to their characters, add to their knowledge about the game, their chosen hobby. If you are going to take up a hobby, why do it half-assed? Hobbyists buy things they never use in almost all hobbies. Photographers buy lenses they use but rarely, but purchased on the off-chance the opportunity might arise; coin collectors buy coin storage books, some of which they use, others they do not... it is a sign of excitement, not an overabundance of wealth. Imagine if you will the photography enthusiast who does not own a camera, but walks around borrowing people's cameras, then giving the owners of said cameras his address in hopes they will send him the pictures he took.

More often than not, I find that the core material offers enough flexability to completely suit my needs.

Many chess enthusiasts have multiple chess boards. Many board game enthusiasts have multiple versions of their favourite games, or purchase add-ons or expansions. None of those are necessary for the game, as the basic game is fine, but add variety and excitement. The core rules definitely see the most use in my games as well, but I do like expanding my options - and the options of my players.

I guess I see the additional books as 'expansion sets' for the game, similar to the expansion sets found for Axis and Allies, Settlers of Kataan, and a thousand other games. The basic games are fine and completely suit the need, but still we buy the expansions. I can draw with a #2 pencil just fine, but I like to expand and have multiple pencils of differing hardnesses and so forth. Certainly this is also not a case of lack of time (I can draw faster with just a #2), but one of preference. Just another way to expand my hobby and my skill sets.

Expansion sets, be it new books, add-ons to games, add-ons to cars, owning more swords/foils/epees than one has hands to use them in at one time, upgrading the computer or more dice or pencils, are about hobby enthusiasm, not about a lack of time or an over-abundance of money.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Mostly, WOTC.

We've got most of the Scarred Lands setting books including Relics and Rituals I & II, Campaign guides, etc.

Wild Spellcraft PDF, Necropolis, and Anger of Angels.

I've got, not used yet, Elements of Magic although I need to update now.

Still utilizing a lot of old Planescape stuff along with other general 2E resources for things like maps, adventures, etc.

I like Encyclopedia: Chaos Magic a lot more than Wild Spellcraft (I have the latter as well). I also use a lot of the old Second Edition AD&D stuff as well (Al-Qadim, Planescape, Ravenloft). Those still make for excellent source material.

 

[Mark van Dyk]

I suppose

I suppose that the amount of books one has may be taken as a sign of excitement for the game. But it is certainly not the only sign of excitement. I had only two books the entire time I played and one of them was in storage, and I dreamed of illithids and rescuing Inzeladun in my sleep... this is a sign of excitment too. Collecting books is completely unnecessary to the game. A world can live quite happily without them. It is always useful, though, to keep yourself reading, no matter what the books. I find that some of my own influences come from other books that I read (as you stated) that had nothing at all to do with the game. Having more chess boards may indicate enthusiasm, but it does not always. And it certainly doesn't indicate skill or imagination. It just indicates that you are a collector. Take the game of Settlers for example. Craig has all the expansions etc, but is he any more enthused about the game than me? Probably not. I love the game and don't even own it.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

I am not arguing that purchasing expansions and books is the ONLY indication of enthusiasm. I am not arguing that the purchase of additional resources or expansions is necessary to the hobby. I am not arguing that the purchase of additional resources or expansions is necessary to prove enthusiasm about a hobby. I am not arguing that enthusiasm only shows itself in one manner. Enthusiasm does indeed spring from a thousand sources and reveals itself in many splendid ways.

I was merely trying to rebut the stance that additional resources were for people with a lack of time or for people who have too much disposable money, which was a statement made earlier. I do disagree with Bob's stance that that additional resources and expansions are for time-deficit and/or overly wealthy individuals. I merely offered an alternative view - and certainly not the only view.

Certainly a player can be exceptionally enthused about a hobby without ever buying a thing for it - participation may well be enough. I fenced for a while without ever owning a foil, for example. However, just because I now have three foils/epees, that does not indicate that I either have too much money or that I don't have time to mess with merely one foil.

My argument should not be considered a jab at anyone who elects to show their enthusiasm in alternative methods, nor am I designating those methods to be "less enthusiastic" than the purchase of additional materials. My argument should be considered a rebuttal of a point I disagree with.

As for being a collector, that is merely another hobby, and there is nothing wrong with being a book collector, comic book collector, stamp collector, or fantasy roleplaying game book collectors. I certainly am not implying that the owning of multiple swords, multiple game boards, or multiple RPG books is indicitive of skill - merely that it is NOT indicitive of lack of time nor is it indicitive of too much disposable wealth.

I suppose if you were arguing with my stance, you should probably tear down my idea and prove instead that the purchase of additional hobby material does not and cannot be indicitive of hobby enthusiasm. Unless you can do that, I will consider the point I was trying to rebut as rebutted.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

We've got most of the Scarred Lands setting books including Relics and Rituals I & II, Campaign guides, etc.

Anger of Angels.

I like what I have seen of the Scarred Lands setting. I wouldn't mind playing in a pure Scarred Lands campaign.

What is Anger of Angels?

 

[Mark van Dyk]

Um, okay.

I suppose if you were arguing with my stance, you should probably tear down my idea and prove instead that the purchase of additional hobby material does not and cannot be indicitive of hobby enthusiasm. Unless you can do that, I will consider the point I was trying to rebut as rebutted.

I was just yacking. Not really arguing or attacking anything.

 

[thormagni]

My book buying habits

I have to agree with both Bob and Vincent to some extent. Sure, as Vincent said, you need to make some investment in your hobby if you are truly taking part in that hobby. Buying books, dice, figures, etc., shows a level of commitment and interest. If someone wants to be a chess player, they probably should know how to play the game and maybe own a chess set. But as Bob said, I think a lot of gaming books are aimed at DMs in particular and player's who have more money than sense. You can be a champion-level chess player, with a $1.99 board and plastic pieces. Buying the ivory and ebony board with hand-carved, one-of-a-kind pieces for $2,000 is a sign of love of the game and an excess of spending money. If you are going to play a D&D paladin, you don't need to buy 15 books from different publishers on how to best play a paladin.

Really, my gaming book-buying habits have changed pretty drastically over the past 10 years. Back in my Navy days, I would pick up every Champions and AD&D book that came out (well general AD&D books and Greyhawk books at least, I never really got into Forgotten Realms.) But the expansion in game lines (Ravenloft, Mystara, Dark Sun, Birthright, Spelljammer, etc.) came at the same time as my newfound college student brokeness, and shortly before my being married and having to answer to someone else for my spendthriftiness. Then I became more of a used book buyer. I would hardly ever snatch something up new, but wait until it started making its way to used book store shelves.

I sort of went that way until about 2000. I really started buying again in earnest when 3rd edition D&D came out. But now I am much more of a bargain hunter type of gaming consumer. I have bought a lot of stuff recently off of clearance racks. And I am much more likely to purchase off of Amazon or the Gamers Attic Web site than I am to buy a full-priced book off of the shelf. I just want the most bang for my buck and it is hard to rationalize spending full-price plus tax at at store when I can get it for 30-40 percent off with free shipping online.

I have also become more savvy about waiting to see what other gamers say about a product either online, word-of-mouth or in reviews before I commit to buying it. If possible, I download PDFs and read through them before deciding whether to buy or not buy. I have bought at least a dozen books based on reading through a copyright-violating PDF and saying "Hey, I really think I want to own this." Converesely, I have decided not to buy many books because of bad reviews, or I skimmed through a PDF and said "This is a waste of money." And I HATE getting a game book home and finding out that it wasn't worth the money I spent on it.

There are a few books coming out this summer that I will definitely buy, no matter what. The second printing of Conan, Aberrant D20, the Authority game from Guardians of Order. But I will probably try to find a way to spend less than full-price for all of them.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

I'm pretty picky about what I buy, also. Out of my entire collection, the only book I really don't use is the Slayer's Guide to Yuan Ti, so I feel pretty good about my spending and my choices (I also figured out that my first check from Mongoose will actually more than pay me back for everything I have ever bought DnD related, going back to Second Edition, and then some). Other than Ghostwalk and Book of Exalted Deeds, I use the various WotC books fairly heavily as well. So long as the book gives me seeds, ideas and inspirations for adventures, it was well spent money, be it an RPG book, a novel, a Time/Life reference book, a comic, or anything else. Although nothing but the Player's Handbook is needed, there is nothing wrong with hobbyists who want a little extra or to try something new.

Sure a lot of the books are most useful to the DM's, but that doesn't mean the DM is lacking in time just because he uses one or more of them for inspiration and ideas. I guess I don't like the implication of laziness in Bob's assertion. I may use reference works, but I still work hard to bring about a good game. I am not entirely convinced that companies actually aim their products at lazy DM's and stupid players. Can anyone provide some proof that any products are actually aimed at this target market?

 

[thormagni]

Can anyone provide some proof that any products are actually aimed at this target market?

Well, I don't expect to find a book publisher writing a promo for their new book touting it as "This book is for lazy GMs and dumb players with too much money." Somehow I don't think that would be a big seller

I know that I never meant anything negative in reference to DMs who use published materials. And I certainly don't think it is "lazy" for a time-crunched GM to do so. I think the reality is that most adults, especially married, gainfully employed adults, have less time to devote to creating a game world, adventures, house rules, etc., than those without such time commitments. And anyone who would GM a game, putting in the extra effort for his friends' and players' enjoyment could hardly be lazy, no matter what they did or didn't read beforehand.

As for the "players with more money than sense" theme, I admit that was a less-than-kind comment. But I have seen books that make me wonder, "Who exactly will be purchasing this?" and the corrolary "Why would somebody spend $xx for THIS?" But surely someone is spending money on it. And just as surely someone is looking at the things I have spent money on and saying the same thing. It is all a matter of taste, and there was no real reason for me to get snarky about it.

Does anybody deliberately put out a sub-par product? No, certainly not. Is anybody deliberately aiming at the non-discriminating consumer? Not intentionally, no. But there are a lot of factors that can combine to make a project that seemed like a good idea around the conference table look like a dud on the game store shelf. And when a small company has put important capital into creating something, they can hardly be expected to scrap a product, just because it does not live up to their expectations.

 

[XanthorDrathos]

I like what I have seen of the Scarred Lands setting. I wouldn't mind playing in a pure Scarred Lands campaign.

You'd like the setting. It's dark with lots of unknowns, plenty of politics, and collective groups good and otherwise. Jen has being DMing it extremely well and I'm playing a gnomish wizard/Sage of the Phylacteric Vault/Pandamonincist and loving it.

What is Anger of Angels?

It's a suppliment from Sword and Sorcery written by Sean K Reynolds that is what Book of Exalted Deeds wasn't in regards to everything about celestials (including fallen ones). It's got cool feats, prestige classes, spells, and stuff from a mix of religious backgrounds although mostly Judeo-Christian. It's really neat and worth a look.