D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Stacking the same Meta-magic feat

[Andion Isurand]

If you noticed Frank, the said statement you quoted was not directed towards any particular individual nor was it for this thread. I don't see you hestitating to throw your barbs in any, so don't act special. (It is true that many people become complacent.)

Nail, if something about my sig is not correct, please tell me instead of being pretentous with your underhanded remarks.

My offering the related 3.5 caption was met with little more than vicious bites. Congratulations folks.

(( Not expecting this will be unique, but oh well. )) Allowing the same feat to stack on one spell is a bad idea. By disallowing it, abuses are prevented, some that cannot be seen. And how vitally important is it, that the spellcasters cast such spells? I would not leave the end of this yarn thread, to hang out where people can pull on it.

 

[Olive]

My offering the related 3.5 caption was met with little more than vicious bites. Congratulations folks.

Calm down. We pointed out that we knew. That's all. ry not to take it so personally!

 

[Thanee]

I think they should have made an exception for Extent Spell, which is not overly powerful, but a nice bonus, and absolutely not game-breaking if applied multiple times. It's actually a bit on the weak side, if you cannot do so.

Empower Spell is insane, if you can stack it with itself (especially combined with something like Improved Metamagic).

In general I welcome the change.

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

None of the metamagic feats are "insane", even if you stack them with themselves. I suggest you look over the spells in the PHB, and try to "break" a spell with the use of the metamagic feats there.

Empowering a spell requires quite a lot of effort: A feat, and at least two spell levels.

The insanity first appears when you allow other broken feats into the mix, namely Improved Metamagic, or the similar ability of the Incantrix and ilk. Which just goes to show how little thought was actually put into these ideas (reducing the level due metamagic feats).

The reason there has been no errata to Improved Metamagic is just because it is so horribly broke you can't possibly fix it in an easy, handy manner, without making it completely useless.

And Andion, if you had the thread in its entirity, would have seen that your comment was unnecessary at best, and condescendingly patronising at worst.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think they should have made an exception for Extent Spell, which is not overly powerful, but a nice bonus, and absolutely not game-breaking if applied multiple times. It's actually a bit on the weak side, if you cannot do so.

I agree. It is the only one that has seen use of ultiple stacking in our games, but maybe because we haven't made to very high level. Allowing multiple Extended spells is everything except broken. And the cost of more spell levels becomes a real burden after a couple Extend, so that it's not even very convenient, as you say.

Empower Spell is insane, if you can stack it with itself (especially combined with something like Improved Metamagic).

I disagree. +4 level to actually double a spell's damage is a big cost IMHO. Consider that you can do quite the same by casting 2 of the same spell, although it takes 2 rounds and gives 2 separate saves. If you otherwise use it to Empower a spell which doesn't do damage but instead gives a random penalty, the average effect is only slightly better than Maximise.

It's definitely Improved Metamagic that becomes broken once it allows you to decrease by 1 the effective level of EACH instance of a metamagic feat applied, since applying Empower twice would cost only +2 level, and for the same +4 level you would now increase damage by 200%.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think stacking Empower would break the Awaken spell... letting them stack exaggerates already over-the-top spells.

 

[green slime]

I think stacking Empower would break the Awaken spell... letting them stack exaggerates already over-the-top spells.

An Empowered Empowered Awaken is a 9th level spell, only available to Druids.

3d6x2 may seem a lot, but unless you allow rerolls, your Plant friend can still end up with a sucky score. Average is going to be 21, and a score above 30 is going to be unusual. And will be just as likely as a score of 12 or less.

I just feel that if you think this broken, then perhaps it is Awaken that needs the fix and not stacking metamagic. Personally I feel OK with the Empowered Empowered Awaken.

 

[Thanee]

None of the metamagic feats are "insane", even if you stack them with themselves. I suggest you look over the spells in the PHB, and try to "break" a spell with the use of the metamagic feats there.

You are probably right, the insanity only starts if you add the really broken stuff, like Improved Metamagic, Metamagic Rods, Spelldancer, Red Wizard, and so on. Everything, that makes applying metamagic cheaper.

And one more thing lessens the effect of Empower Spell in 3.5, the change of the 2nd level stat boosters (Bull's Strength, etc). These spells defeinitely were too good in 3.0 with stacking empowers!

Might be, that there are not many really bad spells left now!

However, I think Empower Spell is clearly superior to Maximize Spell, if you can stack it, which Maximize obviously can't. Right now - without stacking - Maximize and Empower are about equal.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shard O'Glase]

And one more thing lessens the effect of Empower Spell in 3.5, the change of the 2nd level stat boosters (Bull's Strength, etc). These spells defeinitely were too good in 3.0 with stacking empowers!

Might be, that there are not many really bad spells left now!

However, I think Empower Spell is clearly superior to Maximize Spell, if you can stack it, which Maximize obviously can't. Right now - without stacking - Maximize and Empower are about equal.

Bye
Thanee

Even with stacking metamagic the stat boosts were not too good in 3e. Whopedee do for a 8th level spell I could possible get a +12 to a stat when I liekly already have an item that gives me a +6. Its a 8th level spell its effects should be that dramatic if not more so since it can easily be dispelled.

And heck even without stacking metamagic I think maximize is underpowered compared to empower. Most metamagic feats are just flat out underpowered, empower is slightly ahead of the curve though still not too impressive with its cost of a feat and 2 spell levels.