D&D 3.x [3.5] Stacking the same Meta-magic feat

[Oni]

A doubly (or more) extended melf is not a real threat.

All told the great "advantage" of melf is the long range, no save/no SR.

In any single round, the melf deals no more than 2d4 damage.


Looking at the breakdown
3rd CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 2 rounds
6th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 3 rounds
9th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 4 rounds
12th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 5 rounds
15th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 6 rounds
18th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 7 rounds

Doubly Extended we get:
7th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 9 rounds
9th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 12 rounds
12th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 15 rounds
15th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 18 rounds
18th CL: MAA is dealing 2d4 for 21 rounds

Given the kind of opponents a 18th level wizard faces, does 2d4 damage per round from a 4th level spell slot seem inappropriate? Not to me. (I can't see how it gets to be 50d4 damage)

This in place of a Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer, or Enervation? Not for me. At least, not in the wide majority of cases where I'd want a broad repetoire of spells to handle the day's diverse problems.

Well first of all 50d4 is easy and can be done by 12th level. Simply extend up to a 6th level spell slot. Now for a wizard that might not be ideal....but for a sorcerer, you've actually just increased your flexibility by adding another way to use a 6th level spell slot to your arsenal of tricks.

 

[green slime]

Well first of all 50d4 is easy and can be done by 12th level. Simply extend up to a 6th level spell slot. Now for a wizard that might not be ideal....but for a sorcerer, you've actually just increased your flexibility by adding another way to use a 6th level spell slot to your arsenal of tricks.

Yes but how many 6th level spells per day does the 12th level caster have? So this comes at a rather inordinate cost.

There are a multitude of 6th level spells which must surely be able to take care of the problem in a similar manner Acid Fog, for instance which deals 2d6 damage over a wider area, and lasts 12 rounds at that level

2d6*12 = 84 average damage to each and every being within the 20-foot radius cloud,

With 2d4 you need to deal damage for 17 rounds just to catch up, and then you have only damaged one creature.... SO for a 6th level spell slot, you give up the area effect to deal 41 more points of damage (on average) to a single creature, and grant them more time to do something about their problem, before it becomes critical.

And sorcerers are supposed to be flexible! (with regards to metamagic feat application on the fly)

 

[Oni]

Yes but how many 6th level spells per day does the 12th level caster have? So this comes at a rather inordinate cost.

There are a multitude of 6th level spells which must surely be able to take care of the problem in a similar manner Acid Fog, for instance which deals 2d6 damage over a wider area, and lasts 12 rounds at that level

2d6*12 = 84 average damage to each and every being within the 20-foot radius cloud,

With 2d4 you need to deal damage for 17 rounds just to catch up, and then you have only damaged one creature.... SO for a 6th level spell slot, you give up the area effect to deal 41 more points of damage (on average) to a single creature, and grant them more time to do something about their problem, before it becomes critical.

And sorcerers are supposed to be flexible! (with regards to metamagic feat application on the fly)

Just about any creature can walk out of a Acid Fog in 4 rounds or less, and most likely would do so since the instinct to flee is is pretty inherent to even the stupidest creature. You can't run away from MAA, and when you consider that the avg damage between the two spells becomes significantly greater. Targeting a single creature isn't that much a downside either, in fact it can be highly advantageous and allow much greater use, as using an area affect spell, especially one like acid cloud, can be very clunky and hard to manage. Anyway given this, and all that i've mentioned above, I think it is more than worth using a higher level spell slot for.

Also, back to the original reason for my example. Extend spell is a good feat when you can use it only one time, that fact that it becomes so much better with multiple uses is a pretty fair reason I think to say no multiple stackings of the same feat. If we assume that all the feats are more or less balanced in their utility in an environment where they cannot be stacked and stacking them makes such a big difference then allowing that upsets that balance, so it's easier to say no.

 

[green slime]

Post #18 (yours) points out the use of trapping an opponent (for instance behind a wall of force) to prevent the washing off or other handling to rid a target of the acid arrow. This tactic is just as valid for an acid fog, and will damage more creatures, faster.

I'm not saying that a multi-extended melf's acid arrow is entirely useless, just that I feel that there are lots of other resources available that are roughly equally as powerful, therefore, the use of multi-extended (and other stacking metamagic feats) is not broken or unbalancing for the game.

In fact, metamagic feats are somewhat weak in and of themselves. Allowing them to stack provides more incitement to acquire them, IMO.

 

[Pyrex]

Given the multiple metamagics do not "see" each other, i.e. the maximize does not see the empower, so the effects are all applied separately.

All that to say, widen a fireball one and it would go from a 20 ft radius to a 40 ft radius. Widen it twice (if possible) and it would go from 20 ft, to a 60 ft radius.

Doh! I knew that.

 

[The Souljourner]

You forgot one thing, Oni: Melf's Acid Arrow sucks.

-The Souljourner

 

[apsuman]

You forgot one thing, Oni: Melf's Acid Arrow sucks.

-The Souljourner

Long Range 400ft +40 ft/level
No SR
And, anyone that actually takes time to prevent the future damage from the spell effectively does nothing for one round. Heck, zap em again.


g!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It wasn't playtested in 3.0, and the Sage just announced it during it's run. As a result it instantly broke the ELH, several PrCs, the stat-boosting spells, etc...

WotC now had to scramble when producing new spells, since each one could be broken by Empower Spell.

It isn't really a problem right now, but WotC is probably going to release new spells that would be broken if multiple Empowers were allowed.

I don't think a feat should restrict WotC's creativity in creating new spells.

 

[green slime]

Seriously, this was not a factor that "broke" ELH. ELH had so much wrong with it, so much that was ill-thought, that this was not a factor. The "thing" that broke ELH was that nobody ever actually sat down and thought what the consequences would be of some of the abilities introduced.

I'd like to hear of a planned spell that was removed due to it being "broken" by multiple empowers (or any other stackable metamagic feat).

 

[Li Shenron]

It wasn't playtested in 3.0, and the Sage just announced it during it's run. As a result it instantly broke the ELH, several PrCs, the stat-boosting spells, etc...

WotC now had to scramble when producing new spells, since each one could be broken by Empower Spell.

It isn't really a problem right now, but WotC is probably going to release new spells that would be broken if multiple Empowers were allowed.

I don't think a feat should restrict WotC's creativity in creating new spells.

If something could instantly break ELH, it's very welcome in my games.