They have a specific gold piece price (50gp) in the PHB. You can also buy them in AL.
I don't think what you are quiting was ever intended to apply to potions of healing in the context you are using.
D&D 5E (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
They have a specific gold piece price (50gp) in the PHB. You can also buy them in AL.
I don't think what you are quiting was ever intended to apply to potions of healing in the context you are using.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Correct. IF the DM allows magic items for sale per the DMG RAW, THEN the PHB prices come into effect IF it's one of those rare occasions where the vendor is selling for gold.
That gold piece price =/= can always buy for gold.
That's not relevant. AL has specific rules put into place and one of those allows for gold piece sales of potions. Similarly, IF I chose to allow the purchase for gold at any time, THEN they would be.
IF I didn't choose to allow that, THEN what AL does has no applicability to my game.
The 5e DMG like literally says, "Common items, such as a potion of healing..." The 5.5e list by commonality and does not make an exclusion for potions. So yes, what I am quoting is for potions as well.
Zardnaar
Legend
Derp I meant they are available as common items.
I do sell them just not in unlimited quantities. Selling curated items works best for me ymmv. Magicmart 3E and 4E was a mistake imho.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
It's fine to sell them in both limited and unlimited quantities if that's what you and your group enjoy. My point is that even common magic items are subject to not being sold at all if the DM engages that portion of RAW.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Arise foul thread! OK, so not too old. Just a month off from being fresh. It's still twitching a bit at this stage I think.
Treantmonk just released (on Patreon) or is about to release (on Youtube) a test experiment he ran.
Five 17th level single-class identical Champion Fighters (he ran as DM), vs five 18th level "whatever the players want to run" PCs the players ran (I'll call that Anything). He ran this for five different groups.
Result: The 5 fighters wiped the floor with the Anything groups 4 times out of 5. And the one that won was lucky because it depended on just one PC choosing a particular subclass (more below).
DISCLAIMER:
Here are some details:
Map from Vecna Age of Ruin campaign. I am putting it in spoilers in case you don't want to see one map from that campaign:
The Anything group were played by optimizers. Often multi-classed. Plenty of casters.
The Fighter-only group had almost the same level of access to equipment, though slightly less access than the Anything group. The Anything group got the same or better magic items.
Here are the details on the fighters, in spoilers to save space:
Each Fighter typically went first in intuitive or at least very early, did about 68 Damage per round, focused fire to drop one PC at a time. In every Test, the Fighters had at least two Anything PCs down in round 1, usually before the downed PCs had a turn.
Anything-PCs usually surrendered by the end of round 2
The one Anything group that won, had a Forge Cleric (straight class). At level 18 they get resistance to Bludgeoning, Slashing and Piercing damage, which seriously challenged the Fighter group. The Cleric had a Con save of +9, so never failed a concentration check against the Resisted damage. They also cast Conjure Celestial, which damages all Fighters every round, and heals all Anything PCs every round.
I thought this was an interesting experiment and worth noting here. Again, nothing conclusive. But it does make me suspect the issue with the high level Martial / Caster divide might not be as meaningful as previously commonly thought.
Treantmonk just released (on Patreon) or is about to release (on Youtube) a test experiment he ran.
Five 17th level single-class identical Champion Fighters (he ran as DM), vs five 18th level "whatever the players want to run" PCs the players ran (I'll call that Anything). He ran this for five different groups.
Result: The 5 fighters wiped the floor with the Anything groups 4 times out of 5. And the one that won was lucky because it depended on just one PC choosing a particular subclass (more below).
DISCLAIMER:
Now he is not saying or implying there is no Martial/Caster divide, or that this is conclusive, or typical. He specifies PCs are built to fight monsters and not other PCs so that's atypical. The Arena setting is atypical. The requirements of level and magic items and starting spots are all not necessarily representative.
All he's saying is this is one interesting data point of many which, to him, shows a high level Fighter and specifically a high level ranged Fighter under 2024 rules might not be less powerful than a caster sometimes, or less powerful in 2024 as you might think. And that a high level Ranged fighter can dish out the single-target damage effectively due to damage per hit and quantity of attacks per round.
He also thinks Great Weapon Master is probably better now than the -5, +10 version (and 2014 Sharpshooter, which now is combined in this one as this one applies to both melee and ranged heavy weapon attacks), and that the +6 damage with no penalty to attack averages more damage per round than the old version with the -5 to attack.
All he's saying is this is one interesting data point of many which, to him, shows a high level Fighter and specifically a high level ranged Fighter under 2024 rules might not be less powerful than a caster sometimes, or less powerful in 2024 as you might think. And that a high level Ranged fighter can dish out the single-target damage effectively due to damage per hit and quantity of attacks per round.
He also thinks Great Weapon Master is probably better now than the -5, +10 version (and 2014 Sharpshooter, which now is combined in this one as this one applies to both melee and ranged heavy weapon attacks), and that the +6 damage with no penalty to attack averages more damage per round than the old version with the -5 to attack.
Here are some details:
Map from Vecna Age of Ruin campaign. I am putting it in spoilers in case you don't want to see one map from that campaign:
The Anything group were played by optimizers. Often multi-classed. Plenty of casters.
The Fighter-only group had almost the same level of access to equipment, though slightly less access than the Anything group. The Anything group got the same or better magic items.
Here are the details on the fighters, in spoilers to save space:
17th Level Fighter (Champion)
Background: Guard (Alert feat, Stealth and Investigation skills)
Species: Goliath (Cloud Giant - Bonus action short range teleport Proficiency x Day)
Ability Scores after ASIs: Str: 20, Dex: 20, Con: 16, Int: 8, Wis: 9, Chr: 8 (Note: I suspect he could have taken a lower Str, focused on just the bow and increased Con and/or Wis, and done maybe slightly better)
Saves: Str +11, Dex +11, Con +9, Int Wis and Chr -1 each (used Indomitable and Mage Slayer on the mental stats most often to succeed)
HP: 157
Initiative: +11 with advantage (+5 Dex, Alert Feat, Remarkable Athlete) This meant these PCs usually won initiative
Fighter Traits: Perception and Athletic skills
Fighting Style: Blind Fighting at 1st level, Archery at 7th
Second Wind: enough uses to use it basically every round of this fight if they have a bonus action to use
Weapons:+1 longbow, +1 greatsword
Armor: Unknown, presumably Plate?
Weapon Masteries: Greatsword (Graze), Longbow (Slow), some others that were meaningless
Improved Crit: Eventually to 18-20 by 15th level
Action Surge: 2 available (second gained at level 17), used on the first two rounds
Remarkable Athlete: Advantage on Initiative and Athletics Checks
Feats:
Great Weapon Master (All longbow and greatsword hits add your +6 Prof Bonus to damage, also had a benefit (Hew) for just greatsword that I think he never used)
ASIs for Str and Dex
Mage Slayer: Turn one save failure o Int, Wis or Chr into success, better at breaking caster concentration
Resilient Dexterity
Tactical Master (Level 9): Can replace an attacks Mastery with Push, Sap, or Slow instead of the one it normally uses
Indomitable: 3 uses (Level 9, Level 13, Level 17), each allows you to reroll a failed save and add your Fighter levels (+17) to the new result.
Heroic Warrior (10th level): New Heroic Inspiration for every combat turn you start without it.
Extra Attack: 2 Attacks per turn (5th and 11th level)
Studied Attacks (13th level): Advantage on next attack roll after a miss
Attacks (3 per round, 6 when action surging), Reroll first miss with Heroic Inspiration, some Advantage available
Greatsword +12 Attack, 2d6+12 Damage. Average damage 19 on a hit
Longbow: +14 Attack, 1d8+12 Damage, Average damage 17 on a hit
Background: Guard (Alert feat, Stealth and Investigation skills)
Species: Goliath (Cloud Giant - Bonus action short range teleport Proficiency x Day)
Ability Scores after ASIs: Str: 20, Dex: 20, Con: 16, Int: 8, Wis: 9, Chr: 8 (Note: I suspect he could have taken a lower Str, focused on just the bow and increased Con and/or Wis, and done maybe slightly better)
Saves: Str +11, Dex +11, Con +9, Int Wis and Chr -1 each (used Indomitable and Mage Slayer on the mental stats most often to succeed)
HP: 157
Initiative: +11 with advantage (+5 Dex, Alert Feat, Remarkable Athlete) This meant these PCs usually won initiative
Fighter Traits: Perception and Athletic skills
Fighting Style: Blind Fighting at 1st level, Archery at 7th
Second Wind: enough uses to use it basically every round of this fight if they have a bonus action to use
Weapons:+1 longbow, +1 greatsword
Armor: Unknown, presumably Plate?
Weapon Masteries: Greatsword (Graze), Longbow (Slow), some others that were meaningless
Improved Crit: Eventually to 18-20 by 15th level
Action Surge: 2 available (second gained at level 17), used on the first two rounds
Remarkable Athlete: Advantage on Initiative and Athletics Checks
Feats:
Great Weapon Master (All longbow and greatsword hits add your +6 Prof Bonus to damage, also had a benefit (Hew) for just greatsword that I think he never used)
ASIs for Str and Dex
Mage Slayer: Turn one save failure o Int, Wis or Chr into success, better at breaking caster concentration
Resilient Dexterity
Tactical Master (Level 9): Can replace an attacks Mastery with Push, Sap, or Slow instead of the one it normally uses
Indomitable: 3 uses (Level 9, Level 13, Level 17), each allows you to reroll a failed save and add your Fighter levels (+17) to the new result.
Heroic Warrior (10th level): New Heroic Inspiration for every combat turn you start without it.
Extra Attack: 2 Attacks per turn (5th and 11th level)
Studied Attacks (13th level): Advantage on next attack roll after a miss
Attacks (3 per round, 6 when action surging), Reroll first miss with Heroic Inspiration, some Advantage available
Greatsword +12 Attack, 2d6+12 Damage. Average damage 19 on a hit
Longbow: +14 Attack, 1d8+12 Damage, Average damage 17 on a hit
Each Fighter typically went first in intuitive or at least very early, did about 68 Damage per round, focused fire to drop one PC at a time. In every Test, the Fighters had at least two Anything PCs down in round 1, usually before the downed PCs had a turn.
Anything-PCs usually surrendered by the end of round 2
The one Anything group that won, had a Forge Cleric (straight class). At level 18 they get resistance to Bludgeoning, Slashing and Piercing damage, which seriously challenged the Fighter group. The Cleric had a Con save of +9, so never failed a concentration check against the Resisted damage. They also cast Conjure Celestial, which damages all Fighters every round, and heals all Anything PCs every round.
I thought this was an interesting experiment and worth noting here. Again, nothing conclusive. But it does make me suspect the issue with the high level Martial / Caster divide might not be as meaningful as previously commonly thought.
Weiley31
Legend
only a caster can do this!
TorgoTheWhite
Explorer
Arise chicken, arise!!! Fun little project
I'm slightly surprised it went that way without cover. But, that advantage on initiative + alert is something I keep ragging on when I am talking about how combat actually shakes out... I suspect going 1st in this arena accounts for alot (as it does in most)... especially if a majority of your team goes 1st
Muh
Hero
I wonder how much better this would've gone for the fighters if they had a better subclass than champion.
Champion is arguably the best subclass in 2024 and I think Champion, at this level, is hands down the best subclass for this particular endeavor. Superior critical + Heroic Inspiration + extra fighting style beats anything another fighter subclass is going to bring.
You might be able to beat it in terms of melee damage by a little bit with an Eldritch Knight, but I think you would be well below the Champion at ranged damage. Battlemaster and Psi Warrior are going to be below Champion across the board. If they did not allow the Cloud Giant feat Psi Warrior might be a better option because of the mobility aspects.
At level 15+ Champion fighter is the highest damage PC we have had using the 2024 rules to date by far.
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