D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage A Martial Consistently "Archer"?

[Zardnaar]

Potions of healing, ropes and manacles are all adventuring gear.

None of them are wands though.

 

[Zardnaar]

A DM can prevent you from playing a Sorcerer too, so not sure that's a point.

And this is the second UA for it, and I'm using stuff that passed the first time. So I don't expect many, if any, changes.

Not that I beat the dart thrower anyways.

A DM can prevent you from playing a Sorcerer too, so not sure that's a point.

And this is the second UA for it, and I'm using stuff that passed the first time. So I don't expect many, if any, changes.

Not that I beat the dart thrower anyways.

Up to a point but non core book with niche class and playtest material a lot less likely than phb material.

Main point is DM essentially has veto ower over wand access.

 

[ECMO3]

None of them are wands though.

No but they all can be effective.

My point, and perhaps I missed it and we are on a different discussion, is that a Warlock familiar is pretty darn effective at all levels.

 

[Zardnaar]

No but they all can be effective.

My point, and perhaps I missed it and we are on a different discussion, is that a Warlock familiar is pretty darn effective at all levels.

Bonus action attacks looking good but it's kinda competing with say hex and EB/Scorching Ray spam.

I like controlocks though so having bonus action available is great. Also requires 2/5 invocations level 5.

 

[ECMO3]

Bonus action attacks looking good but it's kinda competing with say hex and EB/Scorching Ray spam.\

It is not the attacks at high level, it is the actions it does on its own, without the Warlock using any actions at all. Doing Hex-EB/Scorching Ray AND another action and bonus action by your familiar is going to be better than Hex-EB/Scorching Ray and no other action.

Things like administering healing to other party members with potions (the Warlock takes no action for this and the familiar takes a bonus action), using any of the adventuring gear with a Utilize action (again something the Warlock uses no action for) and in most campaigns at the level where the Familiar attacks are less effective it is taking the magic action and using magic items with the Warlock taking no action at all.

The Warlock can Hex-EB/Scorching Ray AND the familiar can take a bonus action and action other than the attack action every single round.

I get it that you don't have magic items in many of your campaigns, but a lot of campaigns do and most of those magic item are usable by your familiar with no action taken by the Warlock, and even in the rare campaign where there are no magic items there is still a bunch of adventuring gear the familiar can use.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is not the attacks at high level, it is the actions it does on its own, without the Warlock using any actions at all. Doing Hex-EB/Scorching Ray AND another action and bonus action by your familiar is going to be better than Hex-EB/Scorching Ray and no other action.

Things like administering healing to other party members with potions (the Warlock takes no action for this and the familiar takes a bonus action), using any of the adventuring gear with a Utilize action (again something the Warlock uses no action for) and in most campaigns at the level where the Familiar attacks are less effective it is taking the magic action and using magic items with the Warlock taking no action at all.

The Warlock can Hex-EB/Scorching Ray AND the familiar can take a bonus action and action other than the attack action every single round.

I get it that you don't have magic items in many of your campaigns, but a lot of campaigns do and most of those magic item are usable by your familiar with no action taken by the Warlock, and even in the rare campaign where there are no magic items there is still a bunch of adventuring gear the familiar can use.

I do magic items buy careful how many and what I hand out. Each player probably has 4 not counting consumables.

Cleric tor example has a magic dagger (+1d6 poison), gauntlets of ogre power and a amulet of devotion iirc.

Level 7.

I don't do wishlists or buy whatever you like as much as you like.

 

[ECMO3]

I do magic items buy careful how many and what I hand out. Each player probably has 4 not counting consumables.

Ok, that is 4 magic items. If they are items that require a magic action to use the familiar can use them, unless they are class restricted and very few items are class restricted in the new rules (and the ones that are class restricted are generally on those wish lists you don't use).

Cleric tor example has a magic dagger (+1d6 poison), gauntlets of ogre power and a amulet of devotion iirc.

Level 7.

These items are not very good for a familiar, but a familiar would still generally do more with a dagger with a poison bonus or gauntlets of ogre power than a high level (11+) Cleric or Warlock is going to do with those same items. If you are giving the same magic items to a Warlock this is an example right there, two of the three items you mention are usable by a familiar and would be more benefical on the familiar.

Also I would not say 7th level is where the Familiar's own attacks have fallen off. It is 11th level where that happens, once spells and numbers of attacks scale.

What items does the party have in this campaign that use a magic action to activate? What items does the Warlock in the party have?

I don't do wishlists or buy whatever you like as much as you like.

You don't need to do it by wishlists. Even if you do it randomly, the majority of magic items are usable by a familiar. The only way you are going to get items not usable by a familiar is if you purposely chose to give the party items not usable by a familiar.

And the kicker is even if you allow no magic items at all that use a magic action, as long as you allow players to buy the adventuring gear in the 2024 PHB there are valuable actions a familiar can do without the PC using any action, and these actions generally remain valuable at high level.

 

[Zardnaar]

Ok, that is 4 magic items. If they are items that require a magic action to use the familiar can use them, unless they are class restricted and very few items are class restricted in the new rules (and the ones that are class restricted are generally on those wish lists you don't use).



These items are not really deal for a familiar but a familiar would still generally do more with a dagger with a poison bonus or gauntlets of ogre power than a high level (11+) Cleric or Warlock is going to do with those same items. If you are giving the same magic items to a Warlock that is an example right there, two of the three items you mention are usable by a familiar and would be more benefical on the familiar than they would be on a Warlock or Cleric.

Also I would not say 7th level is where the Familiar's own attacks start to fall off. It is 11th level where that happens.



You don't need to do it by wishlists. Even if you do it randomly, the majority of magic items are usable by a familiar. The only way you are going to get items not usable by a familiar is if you purposely chose to give the party items not usable by a familiar.

And the kicker is even if you allow no magic items at all (which you already said you do), as long as you allow players to buy the adventuring gear in the 2024 PHB there are valuable actions a familiar can do without the PC using any action, and these actions generally remain valuable at high level.

I specifically do allow items.

New pact of chain is still new. Old one never saw it in use outside BG3.

Generally I put in whatever items are in an adventure or curated list.

A sword and board fighter might find a vicious weapon a barbarian GWM won't find one.

I'm not disputing what the familiar can do. A spare wand of lightning or fireballs probably not going to happen.

 

[ECMO3]

I specifically do allow items.

New pact of chain is still new. Old one never saw it in use outside BG3.

Generally I put in whatever items are in an adventure or curated list.

A sword and board fighter might find a vicious weapon a barbarian GWM won't find one.

I'm not disputing what the familiar can do. A spare wand of lightning or fireballs probably not going to happen.

It depends on what you mean by spare. Wand of Fireballs appears in 4 different WOTC adventures, Wand of Lightning appears in 5. Those are just those two examples. There are 10 Wands of Magic Missile, 4 Wands of Fear, 8 Wands of Binding, 5 Wands of Web and 32 other wands. Those are just example of Wands that appear in WOTC adventures, there are many, many more items of other types that are usable and effective in the hands of a Familiar.

So if you are giving the loot in the adventure, then those will be there and if the Warlock gives it to his familiar (instead of using it himself), this is a HUGE force multiplier.

Totally agree on the Barbarian GWM weapon, but the difference is those do not appear randomly and are very specialized. People like to talk GWM-PAM but I think there is only 3 magic heavy polearms total in all of the WOTC adventures combined, and less than 20 total magic heavy melee weapons. On the other hand, when considering consumables; finding a random thing that uses the magic action is more common than finding a random magic weapon and the familiar does not have the kinds of restrictions on use a GWM has.

For example, the 10th most commonly found magic item in WOTC adventures is a Necklace of Fireballs* and in terms of combat items, it is the 3rd most commonly found combat item behind Bracers of Defense and a +1 shield. There are no individual weapons that appear more often in WOTC adventures.

*This does not include potions or scrolls.

 

[Zardnaar]

It depends on what you mean by spare. Wand of Fireballs appears in 4 different WOTC adventures, Wand of Lightning appears in 5. Those are just those two examples. There are 10 Wands of Magic Missile, 4 Wands of Fear, 8 Wands of Binding, 5 Wands of Web and 32 other wands. Those are just example of Wands that appear in WOTC adventures, there are many, many more items of other types that are usable and effective in the hands of a Familiar.

So if you are giving the loot in the adventure, then those will be there and if the Warlock gives it to his familiar (instead of using it himself), this is a HUGE force multiplier.

Totally agree on the Barbarian GWM weapon, but the difference is those do not appear randomly and are very specialized. People like to talk GWM-PAM but I think there is only three magic heavy polearms total in all of the WOTC adventures combined, and less than 20 total magic heavy melee weapons. On the other hand, when considering consumables; finding a random thing that uses the magic action is more common than finding a random magic weapon and the familiar does not have the kinds of restrictions on use a GWM has.

Yeah. If I'm playing those adventures and the wands are there you get them.

Don't count on acquiring one though as a Warlock or whatever.