D&D 3.x 3.5 Succubus Lichfiend Cr Madness
- Thread starter anest1s
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I WOULD DEFINETELY consider cleric AND paladin associated class levels (especially beause of the Cha). I mean succubi (and most other fiends) have spells and they have good melee abilites. Namely you CANT easily categorize classes as associated or not. I mean with this build you should consider those classes accociated. The DM decides whats associated or not this is a case where we can say 'YES" those classes ARE ASSOCIATED (why wouldnt they be and, if not, then what STANDARD classses would be considered associated for the succubi???? A sorcerer? No since a succubi has just as much potentuial to be a good cleric as a sorc. so If one says that a sorc. is associated then that would imply that a cleric is (I mean a higher bonus in Cha than in Wis is no reason to say that sorc. is associated and cleric is not). ALso Fighter? No if fighter is associated than paladin will be (I mean what would make a better paladin of slaughter than a succubi (or a demon in general)?).
I have ran into this problem with some monsters (especially fiends since many dont get cleric spells or sorc. spells per se they get spell like abilites, and they have Full BA (for HD) and they have all sorts of other abilites and ability bonus that they DO NOT FALL INTO ONE CATEGORY. I mean a fiend can take both spellcaster classes and melee classes and thrive so I would say almost any standard class is assocaited for a succubi (except Rogue, monk and maybe Druid for flavor purposes but paldin makes sense to me and is flavorful). One thing to consider is if the caster level of the monsters spell-like abilites INCREASE with HD if so then it gets better abilites by taking ANY class (although many spell-like abilites only increase with racial HD I house rule it otherwise, although for a one time moster that is not really important, but many of my PC's are monsters so I house rule that their spell-like abilites increase with ANY HD they get).
I know it is easiest when the monster actually ALREADY has cleric/wizard/etc spells (not simply spelllike abilites). Since taking classes of cleric or wizard, etc will directly add on to the caster level and spell prowess that you already have... But if the ONLY time we could say that wizard is an associated class for a monster is WHEN that class ALREADY can cast wizard spells then that would mean that a psion is NOT an associated class for a mind flayer since mind flayers DO NOT possess psion spells (they possess psionic-like abilites). ALso in the MM they show that sorc. IS associated for a mind flayer that leads me to think that cleric IS asscociated for a succubi (since succubus's HAVE cleric spell like abilites and a bonus to wis and a HUGE bonus to cha. I am not familiar with the lichfiend but the lich get bonus to wis and cha as well.. and the lich was desiged with a wizard and less so a cleric in mind...)...
Then again its all about how you see it... this is what i would rule anyway...
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Also I have ran into the "divine grace saving throw tanks" problem before... However may still be possible to defeat this creature at lv 12 especially if your PC's are min=maxed with high abilities (which probaly means your melee PC has ultra high HP). I mean touch attack it and use spells that dont requries saving throws (which conveniently most ranged touch spells like the Orb libe DO NOT require saves and they are touch attacks... Also at level 12 AC30 shouldnt be impossible to hit (with 20 str, easiy to come bv if you have high abilites, BA+12, weapon focus, and a +2 weapon your attack will be +20 (thats a 50% chance to hit AC 30 not bad at all!) and that isnt even an optimized fighter...) so it is possible to defeat this foe even consiering the classes non-associated and heck maybe that is what you have to do to challenge your PC's I know I have to make some pretty mean baddys to challenge my group, there are 8 PC's though so.... (I will NPC's an array of 18,17,16,14,12,10 OR 18,16,14,12,10,8)... At CR 15 it may be too weak for your group but probaly CR 15 is more like the proper CR in general)..
However like someone said above you must assess your party to decide this... If they are prepared with all the awseome spells to destroy fiends (a time to put those spells to use, unless it is a fiend focus campaign of course) and other gear then it could make this battle that much easier... Are you plannin gon throwing it at them alone or with backup?
However like someone said above you must assess your party to decide this... If they are prepared with all the awseome spells to destroy fiends (a time to put those spells to use, unless it is a fiend focus campaign of course) and other gear then it could make this battle that much easier... Are you plannin gon throwing it at them alone or with backup?
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anest1s
First Post
I am thinking something along the lines, succubus isn't really effective in combat by itself...so 6 levels of fighter on the succubus wont make it the same as 6 levels of fighter on a lets say troll. On the other hand, the troll will not have any out of combat abilities. Now something like a bard maybe was actually adding to the purpose the monster was created for- deception for succubus.
Some monsters have spell like abilities that are cast ''like a 9th level sorcerer'' or something like that. That is different from just casting x spells at y caster level...
My PCs are rolled with 2 sets of 7 rolls of 4d6, 1s rerolled, 4-1s=18, choose the best set and best 6 rolls of the set, then you can change around abilities point by point. If both sets aren't good enough, a third is allowed but you have to take it, even if its the worst of all. Everything is allowed from every book. Max HP. NPCs get normal or elite array, while very important NPCs get optimized too.
They are only 2 of them though, and they complain a bit when I am onto them. Which happens pretty often.
The succubus will not be an enemy... but they are evil enough to attack it anyway. And it is evil enough to not care about them. So....probably alone. Alone with whatever it has access to in-game at that point.
Yeah I know this, that is why i said that many fiends have spell-like abilites and not actual spells... And even if you have spel-like abilities you still have a CL (an effective caster level but a CL none the less; although the specifics are different it is effectively the same hence effective CL )Also I DONT think it is in the rules that: a creature with sorc. spell like abilites gets an increase in effective CL if it takes levels of sorc. (although I make this a house rule, heck maybe its an actual rules it makes sense that way; I let their effective CL increase in terms of their spell-like abilites and I DO NOT stack their actual CL with their effective Cl, so if a creature can cast spell-like abilites like a 9th level sorc. taking a level of sorc WOULD NOT let it cast SPELLS like a 10th level sorc although its effective CL for its SPELL-LIKE abilites would be 10)... But it IS in the rules that: If a creature that can cast (actual) spells like a sorc. takes level of sorc. then that level of sorc will directly stack with their alreadyhad ability to cast spells (not spell-like abilites).
And yeah maybe you are right that fighter is not associated for a succubus but I think cleric definetely is and that paladin can be argued that it is...
If you have only 2 PC's then that succubus may be a challenge but heh if it is a potentially ally NPC (or at least not an enemy) then... let them attack it at their own risk
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anest1s
First Post
As always, I can't exp you enough
Yeah I know this, that is why i said that many fiends have spell-like abilites and not actual spells... And even if you have spel-like abilities you still have a CL (an effective caster level but a CL none the less; although the specifics are different it is effectively the same hence effective CL )Also I DONT think it is in the rules that: a creature with sorc. spell like abilites gets an increase in effective CL if it takes levels of sorc. (although I make this a house rule, heck maybe its an actual rules it makes sense that way; I let their effective CL increase in terms of their spell-like abilites and I DO NOT stack their actual CL with their effective Cl, so if a creature can cast spell-like abilites like a 9th level sorc. taking a level of sorc WOULD NOT let it cast SPELLS like a 10th level sorc although its effective CL for its SPELL-LIKE abilites would be 10)... But it IS in the rules that: If a creature that can cast (actual) spells like a sorc. takes level of sorc. then that level of sorc will directly stack with their alreadyhad ability to cast spells (not spell-like abilites).
And yeah maybe you are right that fighter is not associated for a succubus but I think cleric definetely is and that paladin can be argued that it is...
If you have only 2 PC's then that succubus may be a challenge but heh if it is a potentially ally NPC (or at least not an enemy) then... let them attack it at their own risk
Cleric is almost useless...I mean, rebuke is useless at level 3 as are most of the low spells :/ and Wisdom wont be that high...with sorcerer you get sky-high save DCs and 3 bonus spells per day...you can just fly and magic missile the PCs or something...?
As always, I can't exp you enough
Cleric is almost useless...I mean, rebuke is useless at level 3 as are most of the low spells :/ and Wisdom wont be that high...with sorcerer you get sky-high save DCs and 3 bonus spells per day...you can just fly and magic missile the PCs or something...?
Yeah but just because it is not a perfect fit doesnt mean that it is not associated (I mean a lv 3 sorc is pretty crappy you cant cast magic missile all day and one shield prevents that, and magic missile is just not that strong especially at level 3).. Where I am comming from is comparing the mind flayer and the succubus. A sorc is associated for a mind flayer (a mind flayer has sorc. spelllike abilites AND a +6 bonus to CHA)... that is it basically all the mind flayer has that is similar to sorcs, at least the important stuff... On the other hand a succubus lichfiend has +6 to wis and cleric spelllike abilities (some of its abilites are on the cleric list) so the succubus lich fiend is just as qualifiedto be a cleric as the mind flayer is to be a sorc. so by similar logic it can be argued that cleric is associated for a succubu... Also, +6 to Wis is a big bonus just because the succubus has a BIGGER bonus to Cha doesnt mean that it doesnt have a good bonus to wis (especially when considering it is a lich. i mean in the rules I am pretty sure that cleric is assocaited for a lich)... But heh your the DM so (and all that aside we can make the decsion of assocaited or not based on the EFFECTIVNESS of the combo/creature in question and it seems like a very effective combo)...
But I do see where you are coming from...
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Loren Pechtel
Explorer
In general I wouldn't consider any of the classes related as they gain little from her racial abilities other than the high charisma.
However, this is always a situational situation--when you dip into a class to get some ability it should always be considered related no matter how badly it seems to fit. Thus bump her up 3 levels.
However, this is always a situational situation--when you dip into a class to get some ability it should always be considered related no matter how badly it seems to fit. Thus bump her up 3 levels.
Arkhandus
First Post
Given that Succubi gain bonuses to all ability scores, DR that works against most weapons, a hefty natural armor bonus, claws, energy drain when grappling, and a host of resistances, immunities, and special abilities, I'd say that paladin and cleric should be considered associated class levels for their CR. The succubi gets plenty of bonuses that help with cleric and paladin spellcasting and class features, while paladins get major Charisma-based special abilities (only bards and sorcerers have slightly more use for Charisma than paladins).
Though again, Succubi can't be (regular) paladins unless another template or the like removes their Chaotic and Evil subtypes to remove that "taint" of, y'know, being molded from the fabric of the Abyss from the tortured soulstuff of terribly-wicked mortals and probably having spent eons afterward revelling in further wickedness after becoming a demon.
Though apparently the Paladin of Slaughter variant still gets Divine Grace and all that, so it still gets roughly the same benefits from Charisma as a regular paladin. Especially if it becomes undead through that Lichfiend template, then it can use Deadly Touch to heal itself like a regular paladin. In which case, yeah, paladin of slaughter should definitely be considered an associated class for the Succubus.
Given the Succubi's teleportation, energy drain, and other advantages, I'd say that the multiclass and template combo you mentioned would probably be more than a CR 13 encounter, probably CR 15 or 16. Could appear right next to the party's mage and grapple/energy drain them, or use Deadly Touch to maim someone in the party, in addition to casting her own spells and fighting in melee if necessary (and of course, beefing up her defenses and other combat stats with cleric spells beforehand, plus having a decent chance of charming or otherwise controlling PCs and such, and she could always try to summon a vrock to help her out if needed).
It irks me that those variant paladins seem to be just as powerful as regular paladins, though..... Especially given how their "codes of conduct" basically just say "be an evil bastard" rather than actually restricting them at all. Regular paladins have it a lot tougher earning and keeping their powers.
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