D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Tauric monster's base creature LA doesn't matter?

[afluty]

I'm looking at the monster manual II (3.0) and the update booklet that revises it to 3.5 (found here). In the book no level adjustment is listed. However, in the revision notes for tauric creatures it says that the level adjustment of a tauric creature is the base humanoid +3. So what I would like to know is whether or not the level adjustment for the base creature is significant. By the errata, I could add templates like woodling (mm3 pg197, +3LA) and celestial (+2LA) for free to the base creature (before it was templated on). It is important to note that you could only add templates that don't change the type of the creature from animal, magical beast, or vermin, but other than that it seems like free abilities. Am I overlooking something? Thanks in advance!

EDIT: I called it the half-celestial template, when it should have said celestial. The link was correct, however. Thanks for finding the error, Tovec.

 

[Tovec]

Let me start at the beginning. The part from the link you provided about MM2 changes still specify a level adjustment of +3 "LA Base humanoid +3" but as I reread your post you state that.

Okay second thing, are the changes important? Debatable. Are they necessary? The revision explicitly says No they are not required but they are a good idea to update it from 3.0 to 3.5.

Level adjustments in general are significant, yes.
You could add a +3 LA and a +2 LA to a creature was well as or instead of this template but I don't really understand your statement. You couldn't have both (a total of +5 LA) to compensate for the +3 from Tauric.

It is important to note that you could only add templates that don't change the type of the creature from animal, magical beast, or vermin, but other than that it seems like free abilities.

WHAT?
It is more important to note that each template will specify what kind of creature qualifies for the template. If you have half-celestial (were originally humanoid) and became an outsider (good) then you would no longer qualify for another template that requires you to be a humanoid.
I certainly don't understand what you mean by them being "FREE ABILITIES".

Am I overlooking something?

When I first started this reply I thought so but now I'm just confused at what you are asking to tell you if you are or not.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Am I overlooking something?

Nope. If you want the lower half to be a monster of legend, spellwarped, [insert templates here] monstrosity, that's perfectly legal. Of course, if you try that as a player your DM will likely bludgeon you over the head with the DMG, and if you do that to your players as a DM you should bludgeon yourself over the head with the DMG.

 

[afluty]

WHAT?

I think you are confusing the base humanoid with the base creature. They are the two halves to the tauric creature. The text states that the level adjustment of the template is the base humanoid's +3, therefore if you were to add level adjustment to the creature half, you wouldn't have to pay for it with this template.

 

[Tovec]

I think you are confusing the base humanoid with the base creature. They are the two halves to the tauric creature. The text states that the level adjustment of the template is the base humanoid's +3, therefore if you were to add level adjustment to the creature half, you wouldn't have to pay for it with this template.

Assuming I understood this correctly. I reiterate my WHAT?

Level adjustment works as follows. IF this is different from what you understand please let me know as it alters our conversations drastically.

DM says make a level 16 character.
Player A makes a human (0 lvl adjust) wizard of 16th (16 HD) level.
Player B makes a "half"human "half" half-celestial (+2 adjust) half-dragon (+3), tauric (+3 adjust) fighter of 8th (8 HD) level. (1)
Both are level 16 or ECL 16 characters, even though one has far less class levels than the other. Basically level adjustments delay how long it takes for that character to become "even" (2) with the other players. How long it is before they can take class levels.

(1) This is assuming he CAN take all those templates without the DM beating him over the head with the DMG. And of course assuming the templates didn't alter him to the point where he was unable to take the second (third) template.
(2) How balanced or even they are in actuality is debatable. But RAW this is true.


Do we agree?

 

[shadyizok]

Except that when player B tries to make a tauric fighter he chooses for the humanoid part an elf (lvl adjustment 0) and for the animal part a half-masomething overtemplated legendary beast of monstrosity (lvl adjustment 45 because of all the templates). Then he looks at the rules for tauric and just has to be lvl addjustment 3 (humanoid+3). So he can still be a lvl 13 fighter and be ECl 16.

 

[Herzog]

the 'base' creature referred to is NOT, as you seem to assume, the templateless humanoid you started from, but the creature the template is added to.

If you add the tauric template to a half-celestial bear, you add both the LA of the half-celestial template and the LA for the tauric template to the bear.

 

[the Jester]

I think the confusion here stems from the idea that, somehow, the base creature's level adjustment starts at 0.

It starts at whatever the base creature's level adjustment is.

 

[Tovec]

I think you are confusing the base humanoid with the base creature. They are the two halves to the tauric creature. The text states that the level adjustment of the template is the base humanoid's +3, therefore if you were to add level adjustment to the creature half, you wouldn't have to pay for it with this template.

I was getting the terms confused and my last post was to clarify we both understand how the level adjustment from templates works. We do. That's good.

You were saying that you can add other templates to the base creature (the animal, beast, vermin) and you wouldn't have to pay. Technically this is right. Any DM I know would smack you hard if you found a combo that worked but RAW you are completely accurate.

To a point, as soon as those templates change the base creature away from animal, vermin or beast they would no longer qualify for the Tauric template. Half-celestial changes the base creature to Outsider (as I already said) and therefore would negate their ability to be used in tauric template.

You could add it to the tauric creature (the finished product) after the fact as I said in my previous post.

Except that when player B tries to make a tauric fighter he chooses for the humanoid part an elf (lvl adjustment 0) and for the animal part a half-masomething overtemplated legendary beast of monstrosity (lvl adjustment 45 because of all the templates). Then he looks at the rules for tauric and just has to be lvl addjustment 3 (humanoid+3). So he can still be a lvl 13 fighter and be ECl 16.

Well as I just pointed out, yes he could pick elf (I picked human as an obvious 0 LA creature but any humanoid would have worked) but trying to find that one massively overtemplated legendary beast wouldn't have worked. There are a lot of powerful beasts which would work, granted, but templates almost always change the type to no longer work with the Tauric template.

A sneaky alternative is to find the most powerful four legged creatures out there. Yes, this is an option. Or to find a template that changes any creature to a vermin with four legs of medium or large size only. Yes that would work too.

the 'base' creature referred to is NOT, as you seem to assume, the templateless humanoid you started from, but the creature the template is added to.

If you add the tauric template to a half-celestial bear, you add both the LA of the half-celestial template and the LA for the tauric template to the bear.

The revision done by WotC explicitly says the LA applies to the humanoid (the one that advances) and not the base creature. I only went with a limited understanding of not reading the actual books and merely going on the revised pdf of which I was linked.

Either way I needed to know that afluty and I understood how templates are (usually) acquired and applied to a character.

Also, you should read the Tauric template, as clearly changing the type from animal to outsider will no longer allow them to become tauric.

I think the confusion here stems from the idea that, somehow, the base creature's level adjustment starts at 0.

It starts at whatever the base creature's level adjustment is.

The base creature's level adjustment according to tauric really doesn't matter.


In summary, yes what allowing a player access to any creature which falls into the criteria listed and getting the powers listed in the description is a little silly for +3 LA. That being said, as far as I find that's exactly what it costs. A more rational idea [see below in black] would have been something like what WotC did in the 3.5 MM1 for Natural (and artificial) Lycanthropes. They didn't but it would be a natural alternative.

Oh, and I made my previous two posts without use of the MM2 or MM1. Any confusions I had or I caused were unintentional but even after grabbing the books and physically looking through, I was still confused by afluty's question.

Oh for those who don't have any idea what that looks like..
Level adjustment for a lycanthrope has two versions depending on if natural or afflicted. Natural have control and afflicted don't.
"Same as base creature +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). In addition, a lycanthrope's character level is increased by the number of racial hit dice the base animal has."
A note like the above changing racial hit dice for level adjustment and hit dice would have solved this entire thread.

 

[afluty]

By the errata, I could add templates like woodling (mm3 pg197, +3LA) and half-celestial (+2LA) for free to the base creature (before it was templated on). It is important to note that you could only add templates that don't change the type of the creature from animal, magical beast, or vermin, but other than that it seems like free abilities. Am I overlooking something? Thanks in advance!

(self-quote)
I'm glad we reached the same conclusion about not changing the creature type with templates before it could be added on. The two examples I provided do not change the creature type from the ones required to use the template, and thus would be "free-abilities" (if overlooked by the DM). And I do understand how to calculate ECL. I decided not to bring up the HD of the creatures used so that I wouldn't have to effectively publish the template on here. Obviously, choosing the most powerful creature possible for your base creature would result in many racial HD being added to the build, and this would raise the ECL equivalently.