D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Weaponmaster

[Victim]

The CW Kensai is essentially a fighter variant based around a signature weapon, tricks with Concentration, and non sucky social skills. In my opinion, the Kensai seems like a more self sufficient, less specialized fighter hard. It has better saves, skills, can make it's own magic weapons, and can buff itself too.

The old weapon master was designed to hit people really hard, and have a non sucky variant of WW attack. A character could get increased combat abilities in exchange for spending most of his feats on the whirlwind chain.

Aside from the fact that the OA weaponmaster was called Kensei, the two classes are nothing alike.

 

[Camarath]

Don't be silly, I don't think they did that to distinguish the classes.

What do you think is the reason that they do not share the same name? And why since the name is the only thing that seems similar about the classes do you think that they are meant to represent the same class?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What do you think is the reason that they do not share the same name?

OK, be silly then. Sure, they're both called "Sword Saint", but since there's one letter different (one that wouldn't even change the sound of the name), they have to be totally different things.

And why since the name is the only thing that seems similar about the classes do you think that they are meant to represent the same class?

Let's see:
Prereq BAB +5? Check
Masterwork Weapon (unless unarmed)? Check
Weapon of Choice/Signature Weapon, meaning that you get your benefits only with one type of weapon? Check
d10? Check
Using Ki? Check
Monk Friendly? Check

The actual abilities might not be the same, but since a lot of them are related to criticals, and that got toned down, It's only to be expected that they remove abilities that circumvent the recent changes.

Well, I wrote to Wizards customer service about this, Let's see what they say about it.

 

[Pax]

Let's see:
Prereq BAB +5? Check
Masterwork Weapon (unless unarmed)? Check

No. The CW Kensai does not require you to have a masterwork weapon to enter the class. To use Signature Weapon, if it's a manufactured weapon? Absolutely. But not merely to take levels of (CW)Kensai!

Weapon of Choice/Signature Weapon, meaning that you get your benefits only with one type of weapon? Check
d10? Check
Using Ki? Check
Monk Friendly? Check

Looking up Weapon Master from Sword and Fist, and focussing only on what hasn't already been mentioned:

• Feat: Dodge ... Nope!
• Feat: Mobility ... Nope!
• Feat: Combat Reflexes ... Nope!
• Feat: Whirlwind Attack ... Nope!
• Attribute: Dexterity 13+ ... Nope!
• Skill: Intimidate 4 ranks ... Nope!
  

... and similarly, from the CW Kensai:

• Alignment: Any lawful ... Nope!
• Skill: Concentration 5 ranks ... Nope!
• Skill: Diplomacy 5 ranks ... Nope!
• Skill: Ride 5 ranks ... Nope!

So, we have the followign points of congruence:

• BAB: +5
• Feat: Combat Expertise
• Special: Use of ki
• Special: benefits focus on use of a particular weapon or weapon type
• Special: class is "monk friendly", whatever that means

Hmm, five points of congruence, and ten points od difference! And, let's address those points of congruence, one by one:

Requires BAB +5 or better
This is so common, it's laughable. Almost EVERY class needs a +5 or +6 base attack bonus; as a point of congruence supporting a claim that the two classes are the same, this is outright laughable.

Requires Combat Expertise to enter
Again, this is a very common prerequisite - I believe its needed for any prestige class which centers around "extraordinary skill with weapons".

Special: describes many of it's abilities as using "ki"
Well, so what? So does the Ravager Prestige Class, in fact. And "ki" is a real-world concept; you wouldn't hold up "uses psionics" as proof that two classes were the same, would you?

Special: benefits focus on use of particular weapon or weapon type
Hmm, let's see, how many classes fit that bill, eh? Lasher, duellist, master of chains, deepwood sniper, order of the bow initiate, hulking hurler, exotic weapon master, invisible blade, master thrower, warshaper ("natural weapons", natch), etc, etc, etc ... ad infinitum, ad absurdum. Obviously, that "feature" is used for an entire panoply of prestige classes. Thus, this is a non-starter, sorry.

Special: class is "monk friendly"
So are the following, just from CW: justiciar, tattoo'd monk, reaping mauler, drunken master. Another non-starter, because it has also been used for an array of classes.

The actual abilities might not be the same, but since a lot of them are related to criticals, and that got toned down, It's only to be expected that they remove abilities that circumvent the recent changes.

Only one of the Weapon Master's abilities comes even close to a changed rule - ki critical, which self-stacks with the Improved Critical feat. And it doesn't violate that rule, either - it doesn't let you stack keen and impcrit, it simply produces an especial, this-class-only bonus.

Well, I wrote to Wizards customer service about this, Let's see what they say about it.

WOTC Customer Service is useless, and if you asked them the same question five times, you'd probably get six mutually-exclusive answers.

 

[Pax]

So's the CW Samurai. Hah!

Also a good point. The CW Kensai was built, IMO, to convert the OA Samurai's "ancestral daisho" to an any-setting, "take this PrC to get it" ability.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

No. The CW Kensai does not require you to have a masterwork weapon to enter the class. To use Signature Weapon, if it's a manufactured weapon? Absolutely. But not merely to take levels of (CW)Kensai!

That's the same as saying that you don't need to have high int to become a wizard. Sure, you won't be able to use your wizard spells, but merely to take levels of wizards, you can be thick as a plank....

Special: class is "monk friendly", whatever that means

Tsk

Hmm, five points of congruence, and ten points od difference!

Seeing that other classes (like the exotic weapon master) had a complete haul-over, it isn't far out at all

Requires BAB +5 or better
This is so common, it's laughable. Almost EVERY class needs a +5 or +6 base attack bonus; as a point of congruence supporting a claim that the two classes are the same, this is outright laughable.

It might be quite common. But not almost every class needs +5 or +6 (and I might add that we're talking about +5, not +6). It's only for combat-oriented prestige classes, and even there, not every PrC has +5

Requires Combat Expertise to enter
Again, this is a very common prerequisite - I believe its needed for any prestige class which centers around "extraordinary skill with weapons".

Not really. Combat expertise is about tactics (you fight defensively rather than offensively, and the follow-up Feats are about special manouver), not about extraordinary skill with weapons. That's what BAB, weapon focus and weapon specialization (and the like) are for

Special: describes many of it's abilities as using "ki"
Well, so what? So does the Ravager Prestige Class, in fact.

But does the Bladesinger? Divine Champion? Bear Warrior? Cavalier? I could go on quite a long time listing combat-related PrC's and very little of them will use Ki

And "ki" is a real-world concept;

Your point? nano/bio-convergence is a real-world concept, too.

But both aren't encountered in everyday life. In fact, in middle-age Europe, which is what D&D is based on mostly, it was probably unheard-of. It's an Asian concept. So it doesn't show up often.

Special: benefits focus on use of particular weapon or weapon type
Hmm, let's see, how many classes fit that bill, eh? Lasher, duellist, master of chains, deepwood sniper, order of the bow initiate, hulking hurler, exotic weapon master, invisible blade, master thrower, warshaper ("natural weapons", natch), etc, etc, etc ... ad infinitum, ad absurdum. Obviously, that "feature" is used for an entire panoply of prestige classes. Thus, this is a non-starter, sorry.

While most of those classes limit you to a certain type of weapons (lasher is for whips, master thrower is for thrown weapons etc) but will sometimes give you the possiblity to use all weapons of a certain group (all bows - not just composite longbow) the Kensei/Kensai/WM will give you complete freedom of what weapon, but you have to specify an exact weapon type - so short sword is short sword, and not "short bladed weapons".

Special: class is "monk friendly"
So are the following, just from CW: justiciar, tattoo'd monk, reaping mauler, drunken master. Another non-starter, because it has also been used for an array of classes.

I didn't say that every feature is unique. That is seldom. But the combination makes it pretty clear.
If I describe a raven, I'll probably use the words "black" and "bird", even though bird will also go for chickens ostriches, , and a myriad of other animal types, while a lot of animals are black, not just the raven. But using both will shorten the list significantly.

Only one of the Weapon Master's abilities comes even close to a changed rule - ki critical, which self-stacks with the Improved Critical feat. And it doesn't violate that rule, either - it doesn't let you stack keen and impcrit, it simply produces an especial, this-class-only bonus.

The idea behind the rules change was that you won't get several abilities that all improve your crit range. An ability that does that goes against that rule.

WOTC Customer Service is useless, and if you asked them the same question five times, you'd probably get six mutually-exclusive answers.

Tsk.

 

[Quaestor]

Just a quick note on the naming, FWIW, as I know a little Japanese.

1. They are pronounced differently. Kensei rhymes with day, Kensai rhymes with die. We aren't worrying about Japanese pronunciations anyway? Well, good luck finding a sizable body of English words ending with -ei for clues as to how to say it.

2. My understanding of the literal meanings are probably a little off, but here goes. Kensai would refer to someone exceptionally skilled with the sword. Kensei would be simpler, literally "sword-person".

Quaestor the Wanderer

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think they don't give too much about the japanese meaning of all of it, or it would not be Kensai/Kensei. For ken is sword and the class lets you use any kind of weapon, not just sword.

OK, it might be a difference in the pronounciation, but as you say, the meaning is broadly the same: Someone with a sword. If not, the Kensai (CW) would be the one called sword-master, the other (older) only sword-person.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, good luck finding a sizable body of English words ending with -ei for clues as to how to say it.

Taking "nuclei" as a precedent, it seems perfectly obvious that it's pronounced "ken-see-eye".



-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

That's the same as saying that you don't need to have high int to become a wizard. Sure, you won't be able to use your wizard spells, but merely to take levels of wizards, you can be thick as a plank....

It's the truth, however. Whereas the Weapon Master actually does require you to have a masterwork weapon, or you can't take the class at all.

With (CW)Kensai, if you don't have a masterwork weapon (yet), and aren't going to be using unarmed strikes or natural weapons, you can still take levels of Kensai, and apply uour Signature Weapon benefit later.

However, with the S&F Weapon Master, if you don't own a Masterwork Weapon yet ... you can't even take levels in teh class.

Seeing that other classes (like the exotic weapon master) had a complete haul-over, it isn't far out at all

Yes, the Exotic Weapon Master had a complete overhaul ... but kept the original name. That's pretty telling, IMO.

It might be quite common. But not almost every class needs +5 or +6 (and I might add that we're talking about +5, not +6). It's only for combat-oriented prestige classes, and even there, not every PrC has +5

The point being, a congruence of requiring a +5 BAB is not a telling point, when comparing two obviously combat-oriented prestige classes.

But does the Bladesinger? Divine Champion? Bear Warrior? Cavalier? I could go on quite a long time listing combat-related PrC's and very little of them will use Ki

And none of them matter. (CW)Kensai is - by dint of it's name alone - an orientally flavored class. And in an oriental setting, references to ki would be as common (if not moreso) as references to magic.

Your point? nano/bio-convergence is a real-world concept, too.

But both aren't encountered in everyday life. In fact, in middle-age Europe, which is what D&D is based on mostly, it was probably unheard-of. It's an Asian concept. So it doesn't show up often.

The point is, they are concepts FROM real life, which the authors of each borrowed inspiration from, and nothing more.

While most of those classes limit you to a certain type of weapons (lasher is for whips, master thrower is for thrown weapons etc) but will sometimes give you the possiblity to use all weapons of a certain group (all bows - not just composite longbow) the Kensei/Kensai/WM will give you complete freedom of what weapon, but you have to specify an exact weapon type - so short sword is short sword, and not "short bladed weapons".

With the Master of Chains, you are limited to a single weapon - spiked chain. Itwon't help you with any othe weapon.

For Lasher, it's Whips (and their higher-damage variants, whip-daggers - and given that proficiencyin one equates to proficiency in the other, that's close enough to teh same in my book).

The new version of hte Order of the Bow Initiate can only use his "main" benefit (the bonus damage) with bows that he has Weapon Focus in; since you can just get "Weapon focus: bow", I'd say that's also clearly "close enough".

The Invisible Blade works with Daggers - straight blade ("dagger"), angled-blade ("kukri"), or T-handled ("punch-dagger") ... a quie narrow range of options, the differences between which are largely cosmetic.

But seriously - the (CW)Kensai bears absolutely no resemblance to the Weapon Master/(OA)Kensei. They are as un-alike as Spellsword and Forsaker!

I didn't say that every feature is unique. That is seldom. But the combination makes it pretty clear.

About as clear as MUD.

The idea behind the rules change was that you won't get several abilities that all improve your crit range. An ability that does that goes against that rule.

No. The rule ws not that you cannot get multiple critical-expanding abilities. The rule is only to the effect that Improed critical and Keen don't stack, because it's too easy to get both for minimal expense and investments.

And, let me remind you that the very person who made that rule about crit-expansion abilities stacking, when asked specifically about the Weapon Master's ki critical ability, in light of that rule, in as many words said "I don't have any problem with that ability" - and went on to comment that 3.0 classes, until updated, "should be fine to use in 3.5".

Tsk.

Right back at you. :\