3.5 Without Minis?

[Retreater]

This discussion sort of began in another thread, but I'm moving it here to keep from derailing the other conversation.

Anyway, I was wondering if people have found good ways to run 3.5 without using miniatures or battlemats. I want to stick as close as possible to the rules as written.

A few reasons I would like to scale back on using miniatures:
1. Our group is large and our space is limited. Battlemats mean all books go on the floor and we can't have drinks or snacks at the table.
2. I'm a transient DM and I'm tired of packing all my stuff every week.
3. I'm spending a ton of money on DDM, and I'm still unable to get what I really need to run most encounters.
4. The intricate movement of miniatures on the battlegrid takes a lot of time, especially with so many players.
5. I feel it detracts from narrative descriptions and takes the game from the realm of imagination to a more physical board game.

(As I wrote in the other thread, I'm not trying to insult people or say that you're playing the game wrong. If you love minis gaming, that's fine; I'm just trying to quit for the reasons above.)

Retreater

 

[DragonLancer]

I don't use minis at all and have not noticed any degredation in game play. Just don't bother. As long as you can keep control of the fight in the imagination of the players, you should not have any troubles.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

I don't use minis, and only have done so on a couple of occassions. My play style tends to be a lot more story and narrative oriented however, and my PCs wind up rolling a lot more diplomacy, sense motive and other such things than initiative and attack rolls. That being said, when we need do to "battle-map" things out, I just grab a piece of graph paper and sketch out the area, then use an initial in each square to represent the critters and PCs, erasing and rewriting the initial when movement occurrs. A bit innefficient, but it certainly saves table space with an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper on the table instead of a great big battle map full of minis.

In past groups, we've also used dry erase boards on an easel, with little magnetic markers to represent PCs and critters. That worked pretty decently too, although drawing the grid on the dry erase board was annoying.

 

[Cergorach]

I've been thinking about miniatureless combat for quite a while now (back when 3E was introduced) and it's quite a challenge. You really want to avoid extra strain on the DM, so keeping track of everything in the DMs mind might be feasible at low levels, but not at higher levels (to much to keep track of).

Keep it simple and use assumptions, make sure the players know about these assumptions. Don't overwhelm the players with a lot of little details and keep in mind that not a lot of people have a very accurate
spatial awareness (they won't accurately estimate distance) so don't say it's a 40'x40' room, say it's a big room (if they complain, ask if they want to measure it with the ogre in the room).

Distance in combat is relatively simple:
- Point A is where combat starts for the PCs.
- Point B is where the monsters are when combat starts.
- Note the relative distances of the PCs and monsters from point A.
- Jot them down besides the names (right besides initiative and hp).
- Administrate when PCs and Monsters move.

The above assumes movement is along a relatively straight line, might be a bit abstract, but not much more then hit points. If there is more then one group of monsters (from a wholly different direction) you can keep track of multiple distance (using multiple columns).

Attacks of opportunity are easy, if someone moves past someone else (PC vs. NPC), there is an option for an AoO. Unless that someone takes a detour and there is room for a detour (not going to happen in a 10' wide hallway).

Good thing is that the game plays less like a game of chess and more like a shared tale, probably faster to). Bad thing is that the players need to trust the DM and the DM needs to be up to the task.

Players don't harbor any doubts about the competency and fairness of the DM. The DM needs to be sure of himself, be up to spec with the rules he uses, be able to improvise, tell a story, and most importantly, be able to convey that all to the players.

Personally i think both ways of playing have their use, as a lot of players sometimes like the chess style combat the miniatures provide and sometimes the miniatureless combat is needed to keep the atmosphere that has been established.

 

[WayneLigon]

If you need a mini, go to eBay. Many, many online stores sell individual minis for reasonable prices. Unless you're chasing a really rare miniature you can get more than you'll probably use in common play for way, way less than you're spend on a case of boosters.

 

[EditorBFG]

This discussion sort of began in another thread, but I'm moving it here to keep from derailing the other conversation.

Oops! I just bumped on old thread on this same topic, before I saw this one. Oh well... there are some interested posts on this topic there anyway. http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=179179.

I haven't moved a miniature on a map since 2003. Except during a couple Star Wars game sessions and reently when I tried Agon (which is much more abstract than d20, but does require some sort of concrete representation of distance). But for regular d20/D&D gaming? Not for years. Of course, I haven't used an Attack of Opportunity since then either.

 

[Steel_Wind]

But for regular d20/D&D gaming? Not for years. Of course, I haven't used an Attack of Opportunity since then either.

Which, of course, is the point.

AoOs are the reason why d20 needs minis. I don't see this changing with any 4th edition release.

 

[Ron]

I've been thinking about miniatureless combat for quite a while now (back when 3E was introduced) and it's quite a challenge. You really want to avoid extra strain on the DM, so keeping track of everything in the DMs mind might be feasible at low levels, but not at higher levels (to much to keep track of).

Actually it is very simple. The DM states what the opponents are doing and, based in their action and the players response, match them in combat. All tactical movement subtleness is lost, but the speed easily compensates for that. Some tactical options remains as players and opponents usually deploy in formations (to protect spell casters, archers, etc). Everything else is improvised by the DM as necessity dictates.

 

[Reynard]

Which, of course, is the point.

AoOs are the reason why d20 needs minis. I don't see this changing with any 4th edition release.

Not it my experience.

DM: There are three orcs in the room, standing shoulder to shoulder with halberds. they heard you knocking down the door and now they are ready.

Player: How wide is the room?

DM: Narrow. There's just enough room to squeeze by the orcs on either side, assuming they don't cut you down in the process.

Player: Darn it all! Okay, I'll charge the middle one. if I drop him, good ol' cleave will let me get another and that'll clear the way for the rogue to sneak around for a flank.

DM: You're going to take some attacks as you pas through the range of their halberds, you know.

Player: I can take it -- that's why I carry the +2 large shield!

How is this any less effective than

DM: See here? Three orcs standing adjacent in the center of this 25 foot wide room.

Player: What do they have?

DM: Halberds. their threatened ranges are to here.

Player: Hmm... Well, if I charge the middle one and manage to kill it, I can cleave one of the side ones. that opens a hole for the rogue.

DM: You'll get attacks of opportunity as you charge.

Player: No problem. My AC is 24.

I mean, really -- both are equally functional, and the former is, IMO, far more fun.

 

[JRR_Talking]

How is this any less effective than

A. you put alot less 'heart' into the second description. In the first example the guy could have charged and still quoted his AC 24, unless you dont use them either

B. Try a room 40 x 40 with 6 exits and more orcs arriving from different entries on turns 3 and 6 of the combat as the alarms have gone off

D&D 3.5 needs mini and grids.
Lots of game dont

Both are good!

John