[3.5] WotC theory on multi-class spellcasters

[BVB]

I would say that divorcing much of the classes abilities from the actual class level would be a start.

Base it on the skill system ...

Not a bad idea. For example, I can imagine that the effective "spellcraft" skill for casting an arcane spell might get a synergy bonus (half skill ranks?) from the parallel divine-spellcraft skill. And as a cross-class skill, he'd have to spend twice as much at each non-mage character level to keep improving.

I still don't think a multi-classed caster should be as awesome as the guy who made a career out of one class -- or to put it another way, that one-class character should gain some advantages for staying focused and specializing. But some *small* benefit from multiple magic paths is reasonable.

 

[sithramir]

Mystic Theurge

Isn't the mystic theurge a bit powerful? I guess at lower levels they suffer (just like a wizard) but isn't having 9th level cleric and wizard spells at 20th level pretty darn amazing? Even at like 14th level they're whacking you with 6th level spells of both classes. At 14th level a normal wizard would have 7th level spells but this caster has 6th level (ie basically 2 levels lower) and also 6th level clerical. I guess being 2 12th level people in CR terms is equivalent of CR 14 but I just don't see fighting a 14th level guy who has a HEAL spell and death prot magic plus spell prots from wizards and disintegrates. Just seems way too nasty. I'm definitely playing some if its higher level but I see it being too powerful to groups that aren't playing below say 8th level campaigns.

 

[MerricB]

The only thing the multiclassed caster loses out on is higher level spells, but he gains a breadth of lower level spells.

I wish people would stop putting forward this argument. It is the height of sloppy thinking. Only higher level spells? Hardly.

One of the most important rolls in D&D Magic is the saving throw. The high-level spells have a couple of important factors:
* A higher DC, because it's based off spell-level
* Many don't have saving throws at all.

A good example is maze a top-flight 8th-level spell. No save, no spell resistance (at least in the 3E version). You might well say that the 5th level spell equivalent is hold monster, which has a Will save and Spell Resistance.

Ah... there is a problem.

When you add to that the fact that many low-level spells are capped for damage, then they really don't stack up. Fireball does 10d6 damage for a 20th level caster under your system. The 20th level caster is using meteor swarm, dealing about twice as much damage.

In a combat, your 20th level caster takes more than twice as long to deal damage as my 20th level single-class - if damage is dealt at all.

Now, there must be some trade-off for the versatility of the cleric/wizard, but the gap in power between a 10th level wizard (even with caster level 20) and a 20th level wizard is extremely significant - and is more significant than the versatility.

The one other factor to consider when creating such a system is that it is simple and easily applied. The system you've described is simple, but still leaves the multi-class spellcaster as far inferior to his single-classed brethren.

Yes, a multi-class should be inferior, but for what can be a fun archetype to play, I think that much is a problem.

Cheers!

 

[sithramir]

..

I don't get the arguement you are putting up. The level 20 theurge has 9th level spells at caster level 20 in both clerical and wizardly spells. Same DC's. The only difference is that your wizard at 20th level doesn't have levels 1-9 of clerical casting ability with his 1-9 of wizardly might that the theurge does. What is the positive of being the wizard at 20th level situations?

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Mystic Theurge

Isn't the mystic theurge a bit powerful? I guess at lower levels they suffer (just like a wizard) but isn't having 9th level cleric and wizard spells at 20th level pretty darn amazing?

It is pretty amazing. Too bad the Mystic Theurge wouldn't get that. Assuming a Wiz5/CLR5/MT10, you still only count as a 15th level caster in either class. And the ride to get there is pretty unpleasant. Because a Wiz5/CLR5/MT1 only has access to 3rd level spells, while the Wiz 11 has access to 6th level spells. You might think that having access to 8/8 spells is pretty powerful...until you consider that the MT has to split his stats, so his DCs aren't going to be as high, his caster level isn't as high as equivalent spell casters, and so forth. The MT looks a lot more powerful than he actually is. Trust me, a spellcaster feels pretty left behind, when he can only cast 7th level spells, and another party member can sling 9th.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

For my part, I think RangerWickett and Zhure are both good ways to go about it.

 

[Umbran]

Re: Mystic Theurge

Even at like 14th level they're whacking you with 6th level spells of both classes.

Yes, but there's still a natural limitation - he doesn't cast these spells any faster than anyone else. Carrying around 200 arrows isn't much help if you're only going to fire 10 of them.

I think the designer's observation was that most primary spellcasters beyond a certain level don't tend to use up all their spell power before they get to prepare new spells. The extra are there to ensure that the spellcaster always has a few choices.

So, they crank up the number of spells the Mystic Theurge can cast, but he's probably not going to actually cast more spells than a single-classed primary spellcaster. What the MT has is lots of choices. And, to balance that, they cut down the power he's got available a bit.

Whether or not that's an appropriate and successful balance is, of course, debatable.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Mystic Theurge

It is pretty amazing. Too bad the Mystic Theurge wouldn't get that. Assuming a Wiz5/CLR5/MT10, you still only count as a 15th level caster in either class. And the ride to get there is pretty unpleasant. Because a Wiz5/CLR5/MT1 only has access to 3rd level spells, while the Wiz 11 has access to 6th level spells. You might think that having access to 8/8 spells is pretty powerful...until you consider that the MT has to split his stats, so his DCs aren't going to be as high, his caster level isn't as high as equivalent spell casters, and so forth. The MT looks a lot more powerful than he actually is. Trust me, a spellcaster feels pretty left behind, when he can only cast 7th level spells, and another party member can sling 9th.

The problem isn't so much with the mystic theurge itself. A 20th level wiz7/cle3/MT10 has 9th level wizard and 7th level cleric spells, which is powerful but still not completely broken.

The problem is with the _precedent_ it sets, of allowing spellcasting advancement in two classes at once. You can bet your booties that within 3 months of 3.5E's release, someone (probably WotC) will come out with another PrC that allows similar spellcasting. Then you'll have 20th level characters who can cast 9th level wizard _and_ 9th level cleric spells.

 

[Garmorn]

Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge

The problem isn't so much with the mystic theurge itself. A 20th level wiz7/cle3/MT10 has 9th level wizard and 7th level cleric spells, which is powerful but still not completely broken.

The problem is with the _precedent_ it sets, of allowing spellcasting advancement in two classes at once. You can bet your booties that within 3 months of 3.5E's release, someone (probably WotC) will come out with another PrC that allows similar spellcasting. Then you'll have 20th level characters who can cast 9th level wizard _and_ 9th level cleric spells.

Since this is not the first such PrC that advances in more then one class at a time your concerns are a little late.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mystic Theurge

Since this is not the first such PrC that advances in more then one class at a time your concerns are a little late.

It's the first such PrC from WotC that I've seen. Like it or not, PrCs from WotC tend to see a lot more use, and tend to be accepted as "official", by a lot more people, compared to material from third parties.