[3.5e] Barbed Devil stats

[Pants]

Remember, a CR 11 is supposed to be a roughly challenging encounter for a group of 4 player characters, which usually consist of a Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, and a Fighter. Regardless of what you may think of the CR system, that's pretty much how it was designed.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm pretty sure that what mmu1 was getting at was this:

In theory, an 11th fighter would be the same challenge to a party as a CR11 Barbed Devil. Either would constitute a CR11 encounter.

Meanwhile, looking at the stats, saves and abilities, I would have to think that as a DM I could do much more damage to a party with the Barbed Devil than I could with the fighter, even if I gave him a full whack of magic goodies.

Cheers

 

[Gizzard]

They were not simply rewritten to clear up understandability of their stats. They were drastically changed. That is not the right way to do a revision that will be backwards compatible.

I think too much stress is being placed on "backwards compatible" here.

D&D isn't a hard-and-fast set of rules. DM style and skill provides a huge variability in the actual CR of a given monster or encounter. I doubt that running a 3.5E CR11 Barbed Devil in a 3.0E C9 slot is actually going to make an encounter unworkable. It is going to help an inexperienced DM make that fight as dangerous and scary as it should be, while a more experienced DM will realize what has happened and adjust accordingly.

I don't know if I expressed that clearly - basically the 3.0E to 3.5E transition will add one more subtle fluctuation in the meaning of CR. I expect that fluctutation to be drowned out by the same factors that have always affected CR.

Also, remember that several character classes are being adjusted; I doubt any of them will be nerfed. I rather expect them to be powered up, so the overall power of the party is going to rise somewhat in 3.5E.

If that is true, every monster who doesn't get at least a little power-up is effectively getting nerfed. Oh no, Orcs got the Shaft! ;-)

 

[Schmoe]

I'm pretty sure that what mmu1 was getting at was this:

In theory, an 11th fighter would be the same challenge to a party as a CR11 Barbed Devil. Either would constitute a CR11 encounter.

Meanwhile, looking at the stats, saves and abilities, I would have to think that as a DM I could do much more damage to a party with the Barbed Devil than I could with the fighter, even if I gave him a full whack of magic goodies.

Cheers

True, but one of the most blatant failings of the CR system has always been NPC's. Even the most basic premise is flawed, as an 11th level NPC does not have the same amount of gear as an 11th level PC.

Start with a basic assumption (false, but it proves the point):
A CR 11 creature should use up 100% of the resources of an 11th level PC, or 50% of the resources of two PC's, or 25% of the resources of four PC's. This is essentially where the "4 equal CR encounters then done" rule comes from. However, an 11th level NPC does not equal an 11th level PC, from the sheer imbalance in equipment. Therefore, an 11th level NPC is strictly less than a CR 11 encounter.

This becomes even more flawed, because increasing the numbers of PC's exponentially increases their capabilities, such that four PC's working in concert can take on much, much more than four times the opponent that a single PC could take on. So, when a monster is judged to be a CR 11, it is judged to be a suitable encounter for 4 PC's. However, this same monster, if it were to take on a PC one-on-one, would be far more than an even threat, and would most likely win the battle. So the discrepancy between monster CR's and NPC CR's is even more exaggerated than it otherwise would be.

I haven't yet come up with a satisfactory solution to NPC CR's, but level - 1 or 2 seems to be a pretty good approximation.

Anyway, I'm very glad to see that they are spreading out the CR's of the fiends. My campaign has a large contingent of devils, and I'm getting frustrated with the horde of enemies stuck at the CR 6-10 range. Sure, I can advance the creatures, but HD advancement doesn't always work out well, and adding multiple class levels can take a lot of time. It looks like it will be easier for me to create interesting and challenging encounters for a long time to come.

And yeah, the 3.0 Pit Fiend was a wimp

 

[mmu1]

Yes, but that Fighter doesn't have to worry about not being able to hit anyone because a Protection From Evil spell rendered him effectively useless, barring hopeful SR checks.

If you played the 11th level fighter well and bought feats in a make-him-useful way, he could be just as much of a threat as this devil.

Even if the "Barbed Devil" in question happens to qualify as a "summoned or conjured" creature, that'll only protect you as long as you don't attack it - in the meantime, it can keep on trying to attack you until your spell fails against its SR of 23. (A better than 50/50 chance is not exactly somethig that requires "hopeful" checks.)

The devil, with SR 23, a Will save of +12 and assorted immunities is a serious threat, whereas an 11th level fighter will have the party wizard and cleric playing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets to try to lobotomize him with a mind-affecting spell first.

 

[Pants]

Even if the "Barbed Devil" in question happens to qualify as a "summoned or conjured" creature, that'll only protect you as long as you don't attack it - in the meantime, it can keep on trying to attack you until your spell fails against its SR of 23. (A better than 50/50 chance is not exactly somethig that requires "hopeful" checks.)

Protection Spells hedge out Extraplanar creatures. If that Hamatula is on the Prime, the Protection can hedge him out. If you're fighting him on his home plane - well then you get what you deserve.
BTW, you only need to succeed once against a creature's SR. So once the caster succeeds, the Hamatula is stuck outside until a Dispel Magic takes down the Protection.

The devil, with SR 23, a Will save of +12 and assorted immunities is a serious threat, whereas an 11th level fighter will have the party wizard and cleric playing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets to try to lobotomize him with a mind-affecting spell first.

Which is why I think that class level != CR. Just another wonky thing with the CR system.

 

[Kweezil]

Protection Spells hedge out Extraplanar creatures. If that Hamatula is on the Prime, the Protection can hedge him out. If you're fighting him on his home plane - well then you get what you deserve.

No, they hedge out conjured and summoned creatures, no matter their source. OF course things may change in Revised. In any case, the hamatula just picks up a sword and twacks the protected character, as the spell only stops physical contact with the conjured/summoned creature

 

[Shemeska]

I'm happy they're going back to the names like 'barbed devil'. I can never remember what the #@!! a 'hamatula' is.

J

Fine, go back to the original, pre-Planescape nomenclature, but call me an Arcanodaemon and you're in for a world of hurt berk. *fingers the razorvine tiara and narrows eyes*

 

[Kweezil]

Fine, go back to the original, pre-Planescape nomenclature, but call me an Arcanodaemon and you're in for a world of hurt berk. *fingers the razorvine tiara and narrows eyes*

Lady's Grace! No'one's _that_ addlecoved. I hope.

 

[Pants]

No, they hedge out conjured and summoned creatures, no matter their source. OF course things may change in Revised. In any case, the hamatula just picks up a sword and twacks the protected character, as the spell only stops physical contact with the conjured/summoned creature

Hmm, guess you're right