[3.5e] I hope they FIX Summon Baatezu!

[Gez]

The MM entry for Devils (general) explain Summon Baatezu in detail. The summoning lasts 1 hour, and summoned devils can't use their summoning ability for 1 hour after being summoned... In other words, they can't.

Same thing for Demons and summon tanar'ri.

It also state that devils are loath to owe favors to other devils and will use it only if in dire need.

Same thing for Demons.

If you happen to have the Manual of the Planes, it's the same tune again for Summon Yugoloth, and in addition, there's a constant percentile chance the summoned 'loth will turn against its summoner and then ask the summoner's enemies for a reward...



Finally, whether you use a calling or a summoning spell to get allies is out of the equation -- any ally you can have is included in your CR. This also include animal companions, special mounts, familiars, cohorts and followers.


You would get the XP for a wizard and an elder earth elemental if both were your enemies and chosed to oppose you; not if the wizard had to expand one of his spell slots (and spell known, also) to get a buddy that didn't cared about the PCs before.

 

[Horacio]

My main complain is that I hate percentage rolls in 3e, I think they are leftovers of AD&D (heym I loved AD&D, so that is not a critic) that should be transformed in more fitting mechanisms, like giving a DC to the summoning. Am I the only one?

 

[Gez]

My main complain is that I hate percentage rolls in 3e, I think they are leftovers of AD&D (heym I loved AD&D, so that is not a critic) that should be transformed in more fitting mechanisms, like giving a DC to the summoning. Am I the only one?

No. I have the same critic for stabilization rolls.

The reasonning behind % in D&D3 is that it is used for rolls that don't depend on the character -- like random treasure, weather, etc.

But it's a bit silly to consider stabilization or success of summoning don't depends on the creature in question...


Edit: editing...

 

[Horacio]

But it's a bit silly to consider stabilization or success of summoning depends don't depends on the creature in question...

That is my point... Percentage rolls seem like a bad add-on in the system, one that doesn't fit at all. And the reasoning is weak specially in those two cases. I hope it will be one of the modifications in 3.5...

 

[Frostmarrow]

A percentage roll signal to the player that there will be no adjustments to this roll. A 50% concealment is a 50% concealment regardless of wind speed, color of the mist, what have you. A 10% stabilization roll is a 10% stabilization roll on a damp wheat field as well as in a high-tech emergency room.

But I would rather have the stabilization roll be adjustable.

On topic, I think that it's a shame when the game designers at WoTC don't read up on the source material before writing these tactics lists. It's obvious the tactician behind the list is clueless as regards to Pitfiend-society.

Edit: If you guys are right about your concerns, that is.

 

[Gez]

On topic, I think that it's a shame when the game designers at WoTC don't read up on the source material before writing these tactics lists. It's obvious the tactician behind the list is clueless as regards to Pitfiend-society.

Not necessarily, that just means that Pit-Fiend metagames too, when they see PCs, they know they are in Dire Need of Help (tm).

 

[Destil]

Consider this . . .

Party is facing off against a 17th level Wizard:

1) Scenario #1 -- Wizzie casts SMIX and summons an Elder Earth Elemental.

Party wipes floor with Wizzie and Elemental but only gets experience for Wizzie.

2) Scenario #2 -- same as above except Wizze *calls* an Elder Earth Elemental via Gate spell

Party wipes floor with Wizzie and Elemental and gets XP for both.


Doesn't make too much sense

It makes perfect sense. Calling spells typicaly have far longer durations (in the manner of days) and impratictale casting times for combat. Thus a summon spell will typicaly be drawn from the same daily spell pool as all the wizard's other spells during a combat, while the calling spell can be cast days, weeks or months in advance. Likewise the wizard can send called monsters after the group from miles away and never deal with them himself. It would be unfair to deny them XP for a reasonable challange because the're never given a chance to face the person doing the calling.

Speaker in Dreams gives XP for a summoned monster under similar pretense, that the caster will not engage the party, but summon and flee, and I feel this is an excelent call.

On the topic of the original question, I would personaly simply determin if the summoning was sucessfull while designing the encounter, through either dice or simply saying 'dosn't work' or such. There's nothing wrong with fudging dice rolls like this, and it makes things easier on the DM.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that all percentage rolls in 3E are determined on fators of 5. Thus you can treat them as d20 rolls. A stabalization check (10%) is a DC 19 check with no modifiers; 15% spell failure is DC 4 check to sucessfully cast a spell et cetera.

 

[Horacio]

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that all percentage rolls in 3E are determined on fators of 5. Thus you can treat them as d20 rolls. A stabalization check (10%) is a DC 19 check with no modifiers; 15% spell failure is DC 4 check to sucessfully cast a spell et cetera.

I'm aware of that, just for that I don't understand why they simply didn't used DC and used percentage rolls so un-3e... IMHO and YMMV, of course...

 

[Simplicity]

Not necessarily, that just means that Pit-Fiend metagames too, when they see PCs, they know they are in Dire Need of Help (tm).

Very true. If I were to play the demons/devils like any PCs
play their characters, then of course I'd use summon ability on the toughest guys. How many 16th level parties is a Pit Fiend going to run into on any given day anyways? It's not like slaughtering high-level adventure parties is going to be a daily occurance. Owing somebody a favor when there's a good chance you'll die otherwise is a pretty good choice.

Think of how the PCs would play a similar situation...

"The red dragon lair is just up on the mountain. I can let you borrow this supreme amulet of fire resistance, but you'll owe me later."

Does anybody actually run a party that would say "No thanks" here?

Anyways...

The main point I'm trying to make is not whether the party gets XP for these battles or how any sane demon/devil would attack. I'm just saying that the summon ability is nearly impossible to balance correctly for a party that you're going to run through a dungeon. If you have a Xth level party, you can't expect any encounter with a CR X demon/devil to be an appropriate level. Why? Because there may be two of them.