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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5467173" data-attributes="member: 35909">In the case of BAB, you can't gain it until after you take a level in the class.  Level up feats are independent of class selection, so don't need a specific class level to get the feat (or the +1 ability score point, for that matter).P. 58-59 never says that is the required order of operations for levelling up, it's just a guide to help newbies.  And if you want to be pedantic about things, there's plenty of fodder in the text there to make a case for my view:"7. Feats: Upon attaining 3rd level and at every 3rd level thereafter, the character gains one feat of your choice. The character must meet any prerequisites for the feat in order to select it.  As with ability score increases, it is the overall character level, not the class level, that determines when a character gets a new feat."Look at that, in the same paragraph they say it happens "upon attaining" the level (upon typically meaning immediately, not after a brief wait) and that class level has absolutely nothing to do with when you get the feat.  Cheeky!It doesn't matter if you pick the feat before or after gaining your class level, it is independent of that, other than possibly needing the class up benefits like BAB to meet qualifications for the feat.EDIT: Also, if you took those pages as a literal must-do order for levelling up, then you would be unable to take a feat that required a class feature you just gained with that level up (say the +2d6 skirmish damage requirement of Improved Skirmish, for example), as class features and spells are both listed after feats on those pages, even though I'm *pretty* sure gaining a class level and gaining its corresponding class features and spells happens simultaneously.  So you would both not be able to use the feat to help qualify FOR a class by taking it first, AND be unable to use the benefits of your new class level to qualify for the feat AFTERWARDS, either.  Does that sound logical at all to you?</blockquote>

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