D&D 3E/3.5 3.5e Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower?

[vageta31]

So I'm starting my first ever PnP game this Friday. I already have my guy rolled up and ready. He is:

Human Rogue

Str 15
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 14
Wis 9
Cha 7

I posted last week about possible build options and have decided that I will be going with Rogue 3/Swashbuckler x/??, or Rogue 4/Swashbuckler x/??. I'm not sure if taking uncanny dodge is worth the extra rogue level that I don't need for Daring Outlaw. Will be decided later.

Rogue 1) TWF, Point blank shot, SA +1D6
Swash 1) Weapon finesse free
Rogue 2) Evasion (quick draw?)
Rogue 3) SA +2D6 (+1 dex for a +4 modifier), Penetrating strike in lieu of trapsense.
Swash 2) Grace +1
Swash 3) Insightful Strike, Daring Outlaw, SA +3D6
???

Here is where I'm undecided. First do I get one more rogue for uncanny dodge or not waste another level of D6 HD? Either way after I finish up Rogue I won't be going back. I had originally though of just going Swash all the way to 20 but I'm really leaning towards doing something different. With that in mind I'm not saying this is going to be an "optimized build" for pure anadultered power. I really don't want to use any ToB or other less common books. Partly because the DM is new and I don't want to swamp him first time out, and because I'm new and want to KISS the first character I'm trying out.

So I'm wanting to try something a bit cool(at least in my book), may not be the most powerful persay, but it would be fun. With that said I "do" want to optimize my idea of this guy as best as possible. Since I'm starting at level one I felt I needed PBS so I can do some ranged and not get myself killed right away. Then I started thinking about what kind of ranged. Obvious choice was shortbow, but then I got to thinking and looking up thrown weapons and realized with TWF it makes sense to go that route.

So with that said my idea is to have my Rogue/Swash specialize in two weapon throwing since a lot of the same rules apply to normal TWF. I could stay outside and soften them up, then move right in with weapons. Since I won't have a bow I don't have to drop it, I can simply throw my weapons and then quick draw my swords on the next round.

So how do I go about doing it though? Master thrower is an obvious choice with somewhat simple prereqs. Sleight of hand is simple, and PBS is already taken. So I'd need weapon focus and Precise shot. Since I need daring outlaw for the stacking of SA damage the earliest I could get master thrower staying rogue/swash is level 9. Assuming I took precise shot at lvl 3 and weapon focus at lvl 9. (On a quick note could I do master thrower AT level 9 by counting that lvl 9 feat as my prereq?).

I'm thinking to do 2 levels of fighter at 7 and 8(or 8 and 9 depending on the uncanny dodge option). That would give me 2 extra feats PLUS another feat at 9 when I actually took master thrower. I could easily get all my prereqs and take Far Shot to be able to get full range thrown SA damage at 30ft without the -4 penalties. I could probably squeeze Craven in there as well to really pump up my +3D6 SA.

I'd assume I'd get all 5 master thrower levels to get all the tricks and the full BAB. Then I could go onto another PrC or just finish up Swash. My thinking with this build is this; Bows don't get +str damage bonus and if I'm TWF I'm wasting attacks with a bow. With the thrown weapons I'm getting dex to hit which is +4 by level 4, and I'm getting +2 str and +2int on each attack with thrown weapons. With PBS I get +1 to attack and dmg if I'm within 15 feet. That's possibly +5 damage on each thrown attack if they hit.

My idea is to be able to start off the fight fast and strong and soften up or even drop one guy right away. If I get initiative and they're flat footed I could easily quick draw 2 weapons (darts have 20ft ranged increment), throw them both for the full SA damage bonuses if I'm within 30ft. Then my next attack I could choose to quick draw another 2 and fire them off, or move in and quick draw my two swords and engage in melee.

I like the idea of a fighter like this with a bandolier full of darts/daggers, maybe a couple of thigh belts/holsters loaded with different types of weapons that I could easily whip out whenever needed. Like a walking armory if you will.

So does this sound feasible? I'm not sure how the rules are implemented but by level 10 at my first Master Thrower level I think I could pull this assuming I had far shot, craven and all the other prereqs;

Catch an opponent flat footed that is within 30ft. Quick draw my 2 weapons, use my palm trick attack and fire off 4 darts, each with the chance to do +3D6 damage(and maybe craven for another +10?!). And since my BAB is enough to grant a second attack is that only one extra dart or does my pam trick work the same on that attack too giving me 6 total? Either way it sounds nasty, and with my high dex and ranged feats it seems they'd have a great chance to hit, especially if the creature doesn't get dex bonus.

Am I dreaming or does it actually work like this? If so it seems possible to do some serious damage right away and depending on the fight I could get as much ranged damage as possible until I need to move in and starting flanking with melee weapons. Then after master thrower I could easily drop back into swashbuckler to finish out and keep upping my SA damage and working on improved/greater twf.

I know I'll lose out on some SA damage with all the dipping but I like the concept and with all the extra attacks possible I'd still be doing great damage spread out instead of just huge damage on 2 or 3 attacks. Sorry about the wall of text it's just that I really like this idea and wanting to know if it sounds feasible or am I not understanding it correctly?

 

[Andion Isurand]

This may come too late and might detract from the list of feats you need, but if...

If you were able to obtain Keen Intellect (Dragon Magazine 318) as a "first level only feat", you could turn Wisdom into your dump stat instead of Charisma.

The feat lets you use your Intelligence modifier instead of your Wisdom modifier for Will saves as well as for Heal, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival checks.

 

[vageta31]

I doubt my DM would have let it in anyways, we're trying not to go too crazy our first time out. I'm already pushing it myself hehe. I originally was going to have my str be a dump and pump up CHA so I could get some face skills. Then I'd take force of personality to do the same, but since we only have one fighter I figured we'd need a bit more melee so I went with str.

Also I forgot to mention but I'm wanting to take arcane stunt acf at lvl 1 swashbuckler if DM allows it. There's an issue with the Daring Outlaw feat requiring grace +1 and SA +2D6. I'm trying to convince him that the grace +1 isn't what's actually important, it's the simple way of saying "requirement; Rogue level 3, Swashbuckler level 2". And since arcane stunt simply replaces grace, then arcane stunt fills that requirement. Have no clue if it's a valid arguement, but hey I have to try

If I get it I'm taking expeditious retreat and can use it 3x per day. Could be useful if I'm in trouble, or just for fun. Throw a few weapons until they get into melee range, expeditious retreat. If I had far shot it'd make darts a 40ft range increment and theoretically I could fire them off from 40 to 80ft with a -4 penalty. Not too shabby.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you want Far Shot, just grab Gauntlets of Extended Range from Magic Item Compendium for cheap.

Hands slot is a crowded one for your build, though. Aside from those and possibly dex +2/4/6 (can go in other slots), there's also gloves of the balanced hand (8000 gp; free TWF or free ITWF if you have TWF), gloves of endless javelins (from the array of the manticore set), gauntlets of infinite blades (like the previous, except daggers instead of javelins and I don't like it as much), and more...

If you need a prestige class for later levels, Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) is a great throwing class. Works best for more martial (fighter/barb) inclined ones using power attack, since one of the features is treating thrown attacks as melee, but it's worth it still just for the level 4 ability to full attack with the same thrown weapon (whether it's worth taking beyond 4 is up to you). And MT 5 lets you hit touch AC, so maybe a late game power attack addition wouldn't be bad.

Other than later on power attacking (and the str 13 required), which you couldn't do AND palm throw...I think you'd do better putting the 9 in str, 7 in wis, and 15 in cha. Or look at a good small race. I like Whisper Gnome from races of stone. I loathe halfling and its complete lack of nightvision abilities (they're supposed to be rogues?!), but the obscure races of eberron book has a sexy Shaped Splash feat for them to potentially get sneak attack on two enemies with each splash weapon attack and the less obscure races of the wild has the 1st level racial sub. level. Which as written is stupid, but as intended is supposed to be +2d6 ranged sneak attack at level 1 and +0d6 melee sneak attack at level 1 (basically +1d6 to your ranged at the expense of -1d6 to your melee for the rest of your career). If your DM is willing to go with intent over poorly written RAW, it's decent.

Thrown Weapon Tricks: You obviously want Weak Spot at 5, Palm throw is pretty crazy. My favorite trick is Trip Shot, though maybe you want the one to make a sleight of hand to leave the foe flatfooted or the one to throw without provoking AoOs.

 

[vageta31]

Thanks for the info. I was curious how the thrown weapon tricks work in general. Do they work like "skill tricks" so they're limited, or do they basically permanently change the way you throw weapons at all times if you choose them to be? Like every attack can be a weak spot, palm shot, etc.. and you choose the best for the situation?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

They're like feats, you can use them whenever you want (or under the required parameters, like little thrown weapons for Palm Throw). You do need Weapon Focus with the weapon you're throwing to benefit from them, though.

 

[Thanael]

S(On a quick note could I do master thrower AT level 9 by counting that lvl 9 feat as my prereq?).

No. You need to already have the feat before getting the PrC.

But otherwise it sounds like a fun build and like you already are quite proficient in planning out builds.

Reminds me of my 3E conversion of two Ravenloft NPCs from the Carnival supplement, The Blade Brothers in which I used the Thug Fighter variant, making it possible to his MT earlier but loosing out on sneak attack. (The 2E stats were straight Ftr8, so it is in spirit of the conversion for these gypsy vistani master throwers..)

I often heard that you should only dip into Swashbuckler for 3 levels or so. (Though Swash 5 might be ok). Rog3/Swash3/Ftr2/MT1+ looks ok too. Check out the Fighter ACFs here. As i said i used Thug2 to get the skill requirements for MT, but that build didn't have Sneak Attack at all.

 

[Thanael]

Also I forgot to mention but I'm wanting to take arcane stunt acf at lvl 1 swashbuckler if DM allows it. There's an issue with the Daring Outlaw feat requiring grace +1 and SA +2D6. I'm trying to convince him that the grace +1 isn't what's actually important, it's the simple way of saying "requirement; Rogue level 3, Swashbuckler level 2". And since arcane stunt simply replaces grace, then arcane stunt fills that requirement. Have no clue if it's a valid arguement, but hey I have to try

I smell cheese. I wouldn't let that fly. The requirement is grace +1. Period.

Why would you ask him , even though you say you want to take a bit easy on the new DM?

 

[Thanael]

This might be of interest: Flat-footing compendium (3.5) - Giant in the Playground Forums

 

[vageta31]

Yes that build is strikingly similar to what I was looking for. I considered the Thug variant but I really wanted to have some SA opportunities, though as you've shown you can hit Master Thrower level early taking the extra fighter feats instead of SA. My guy would have to wait a few levels to get all the feats but I'd still get to have some SA and if DM lets craven in than it will more than make up for the weak 3d6 dice. And if I go back to swash for my last 5-6 levels I could gain some of that SA dice back.