D&D 3E/3.5 3.5e Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower?

[StreamOfTheSky]

No. You need to already have the feat before getting the PrC.

But otherwise it sounds like a fun build and like you already are quite proficient in planning out builds.

No. You can pick your level up feat before choosing your class. Otherwise a lot of sample NPC entries typically listed after the prestige classes wouldn't work out.

 

[Eman Resu]

have you considered scout instead of rogue?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can't do Daring Outlaw with Scout. Then again, even with Daring Outlaw, when you're spending at least 5 levels in a prestige class, I'm really not sure if that feat OR Swashbuckler is worth it at all. I'd probably do Rogue with a Fighter 2 dip, or a Tome of Battle dip if available (Swordsage at character level 9 and sometimes 10 is effectively built in "standard" with any rogue build I ever make now). Probably Warblade for the full BAB and spare Uncanny Dodge to either make up for never reaching Rogue 8 or to swap for an alt class feature if you do.

 

[vageta31]

ToB is in the air right now, I guess I can deal with that bridge when I cross it though I do like the idea. I agree swashbuckler is debatable, but with free weapon finesse and the INT damage bonus at level 3 it can be useful. It's a +2 damage at any attack whether it be ranged, thrown or melee and since I'm doing TWF and hopefully getting lots of thrown attacks it would add up. And an extra SA hit die can't hurt. If I wanted to completely get rid of SA and focus on pure melee damage I could have went Martial Rogue Variant, picked up 2 fighter levels for another two free feats(is that even legal or do the first two martial rogue levels count as the free fighter feats at 1 and 2? ) and went with master thrower by level 6.

If I took two fighter levels without swashbuckler I'd still have to use a feat for weapon finesse and then i wouldn't get insightful strike which is like another free feat at 3rd swash. Also I was planning on taking shield of blades and arcane stunt variant which is bonus things that I wouldn't get with pure rogue/fighter. Are they worth it? Again debatable.

But I love the opinions, this is what I was wanting to hear. The biggest question is the pros and cons versus losing sneak damage or gaining feats.. I'd only have 3d6 sneak damage(more with craven if DM even allows it), is that worth the extra feats I could gain with skipping swashbuckler and going martial rogue/fighter and getting master thrower much earlier? I'm starting to lean towards martial rogue since I don't even know how long it'll take me to get to the levels to take advantage of my ideas.

Which brings up one last question. If I give up sneak attack and thus the majority of the reasons to hide/move silently (other than gaining surprise encounters) wouldn't I just use medium/heavy armor for fighting? Or does the armor cause certain feats like weapon finesse to not work?

You can't do Daring Outlaw with Scout. Then again, even with Daring Outlaw, when you're spending at least 5 levels in a prestige class, I'm really not sure if that feat OR Swashbuckler is worth it at all. I'd probably do Rogue with a Fighter 2 dip, or a Tome of Battle dip if available (Swordsage at character level 9 and sometimes 10 is effectively built in "standard" with any rogue build I ever make now). Probably Warblade for the full BAB and spare Uncanny Dodge to either make up for never reaching Rogue 8 or to swap for an alt class feature if you do.

 

[Eman Resu]

Ive never really liked the swashbuckler, Ive always viewed it as sub par to even a base fighter. For a melee pc to count on high int. just = MAD.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Armor has no bearing on Finesse, etc...

Martial Rogue gets Fighter feat progression, so levels 1, 2, 4, etc... Not levels 1, 3, 5, etc... like sneak attack, I thought that for a long time erroneously. I do love Martial Rogue, more so than regular rogue, but for a throwing build you're better off with sneak attack. Without it, you have no real major damage source to make the throwing worthwhile. When I use martial rogue, it's for a melee build looking to pick up combat maneuver and tactical feats to have cool tricks and battlefield control options.

Now, the reason I say to do Swordsage at levels 9-10 is to get the Assassin's Stance, for a constant +2d6 sneak attack, a very nice boon for just 1-2 levels of a class, not to mention the maneuvers (some of which greatly aid in getting SA, like Cloak of Deception), free weapon focus (see if you can retrain the one you had already to enter Master Thrower), and so on.

So...you could theoretically do that and then get Craven later on for 2d6 + HD sneak attack damage and do martial rogue instead. But I think that'd be too little SA damage to work around, and you'd be really crowding your high level feats (another benefit of getting assassin's stance, or any shadow hand stance for that matter, is the Shadow Blade feat to apply dex to damage with daggers and other shadow hand discipline weapons; and you may very well want Adaptive Style to use your few maneuvers more frequently in long fights).

 

[BENINHB]

Ive never really liked the swashbuckler, Ive always viewed it as sub par to even a base fighter. For a melee pc to count on high int. just = MAD.

INT 13 is already almost a pre req for fighters so they can get a lot of the good feats. If your going to dump INT just go Barb.

 

[BENINHB]

Can I suggest an alternate route??

1) Rogue1, SA 1d6, Trapfinding, lvl1 Feat: TWF, Human Feat: Weapon Focus: Dagger
2) Swash1, Weapon Finesse
3) Rogue2, Evasion, lvl3 Feat: Point Blank Shot
4) Swash2, Grace +1
5) Swash3, Insightful Strike
6) Assassin1 (or Avenger1) SA 2d6, Death Attack, Poison Use, Spells, lvl6 feat: Daring Outlaw (bringing SA to 4d6)
7) Swash4,
8) Swash5, SA 5d6, +1 Dodge Bonus
9) Master Thower1, Quick Draw, Thrown weapon trick, lvl9 feat: Precise Shot
10+) Master Thrower and Swashbuckler

Weapon Focus: Dagger will help more at low levels than Point Blank Shot since it works on both ranged and melee attacks. It's a pre req anyway so you're taking it somewhere along the line.

Assassin1 or Avenger1(same class but doesn't require Evil alignment if you DM is a stickler about that) is better than Rogue 3 for several reasons. It gives you another +1d6 SA boosting you to 2d6 SA and making you eligible for Daring Outlaw but it is not a level of Rogue so when you stack your Swash and Rogue levels for SA you will be one step ahead of plain Swash/Rogue Daring Outlaw. Also you get a bunch of class features. A Death Attack, Poison Use, and best of all SPELLS!! You made CHA your dump stat so Use Magic Device is going to be a little tough for you. By getting a spell list you can use spell items like wands and scrolls of all assassin spells without having to roll UMD checks. You already have good INT which synergises well for the Death Attack and as your Casting Stat.

It would be nice to get Quick Draw earlier but you get it free with Master Thrower so it would be redundant and a waste to get it twice. If your DM will allow you to retrain feats you may want to swap in Quick Draw at level 6 and retrain it to Daring Outlaw at level 9. Depends on if you want more ranged attacks earlier or more SA dice. I'm on the more SA dice side of the fence so i would stick to the order in the original build.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Going Assassin 1 by your progression basically jumps the SA progression by 1 level. Which is nice, though the loss of BAB hurts, IMO. Multiclassing medium BAB classes is rough. I think your build's cool, though. Perhaps do Rogue 4 / Swash 3 / Assassin 1 instead of 2/5/1, though. That way you're still "gaming" the system by bailing on Rogue at an even level, and 4's a nice rogue breakpoint, since you don't lose anymore BAB since level 1, and Uncanny Dodge is pretty important. Also, the Dungeonscape variant for Trap Sense is amazing at Rogue 3. Melee only, but the ability to deal half your SA dice (whether you can add half of Craven is iffy, by strict reading no, it says "dice") against things immune to it is pretty crucial when you consider how many things are immune to it. You should still get greater truedeath crystal and all the other crap to ignore SA immunities when you can, but having that as a backup is still very helpful.

Re: Quickdraw
I'd say to just play as a melee rogue that can throw when needed until MT 1, it would be really foolish to get Quickdraw as a feat and waste the class feature. Or just dip into MT earlier than 9 for a level, go back to the other classes to finish that up, and hop back for 2-5. With up to 4 levels in rogue and up to 3 in swash, you can enter by level 7 easily.

borrowing your format, here's how I'd do the build:

1) Rogue1, SA 1d6, Trapfinding, lvl1 Feat: TWF, Human Feat: Weapon Focus: Dagger PBS
2) Swash1, Weapon Finesse
3) Rogue2, Evasion, lvl3 Feat: Point Blank Shot WF: Dagger
4) Rogue3, Penetrating Strike (from Dungeonscape), SA 2d6
5) Rogue4, Uncanny Dodge
6) Swash2, Arcane Stunt, lvl6 feat: Precise Shot
7) MT1, Quickdraw, Thrown Weapon Trick
8) Swash3, Insightful Strike
9) Swordsage1, Quick to Act +1, 6 maneuvers, 1 stance (child of shadow or island of blades), weapon focus [shadow hand] (ask to retrain former feat to Craven), lvl9 feat: Daring Outlaw (bringing SA to 4d6)
10) SS2, 1 maneuver, Assassin's Stance (bringing SA to 6d6), AC bonus (likely useless)
11-14) Master Thrower 2-5
12) lvl12 feat: Shadow Blade (dex to damage with SH weapons)
15+) Probably want to dip Fighter 1 to help with the TWF tree, then I'd go back to Rogue.

With that build, your sneak attack suddenly balloons like crazy at levels 9 and 10! Especially with Craven if you can retrain.

I do think a small dex boosting race would be better than human, though if you have no flaws to work with, I suppose you need the feat.

EDIT: Weapon Focus requires BAB +1, you have to get point blank shot first.
And if retraining is a no-go, you don't have to drop your first level in Swordsage at 9, I just like to do that for instant access to level 3 maneuvers. If you went in at 5+, you'd still get 2nd level maneuvers and could take level 2 at 9+ for the stance. Then you'd get Weapon Focus with a bunch of weapons for free and be delayed entry into MT one more level.

 

[TanisFrey]

Ive never really liked the swashbuckler, Ive always viewed it as sub par to even a base fighter. For a melee pc to count on high int. just = MAD.

I disagree about the Swashbuckler being a MAD class. You dump STR for INT and DEX. As a Swashbuckler you get Weapon Finesse at first level, so you are counting DEX to hit you enemy (and AC) and by dropping STR to 10 and putting those points into INT to get the Damage increase (and the skill points). If you then later get a STR boosting item it will stack with the INT mod for damage. And in Daring Outlaw and 2 weapon fighting, you will out put as much damage as most fighter when flanking you opponent.

Yes, it is weaker on the lack of feats. But you are meant to compensate with skills. There are a bunch of skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel to help the Swashbuckler. The skill tricks often fit the concept of a Swashbuckler.