D&D 3E/3.5 3.5e Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower?

[vageta31]

Thanks for the extra input. I like both options but I think assassin is out because it requires evil alignment. DM is pretty strict on alignment as far as I can tell, and I don't like the idea of losing the BAB. The 2nd build starts out very close to what I had, and I'm beginning to think keeping my SA is the best option. Even if it is only 3-4d6 for awhile at least it's some extra punch and gives me some options. Also because I will be doing melee as well and not getting bonus damage while flanking will suck if I'm a rogue.

I really like the idea of dipping Master Thrower early to pick up the trick and quick draw, then finishing up swash/rogue. I hadn't considered that before. The only thing I'd consider is taking swash 3 before rogue 4 to get the insightful strike before master thrower, then uncanny dodge after. Partially because with the palm trick I get no +str damage, but I'd still get my +2 int to damage and with TWF I'd get 4 attacks so that's easy extra damage. And also because I have no real world experience with how good uncanny dodge really is and if it would benefit me more for those 3 levels.

Also like the idea of having mediocre SA dice early on, but then getting a nice mid level boost after all of my skills come together. I'm not sure if I can squeeze in anything from ToB, but I wouldn't rule it out. As I mentioned he's a new DM and I really don't want to overwhelm him. However by the time we get to that level range I'm sure he'll totally be into the swing of things and may be ok with me taking a few things if it goes along with my character build concept. He seems really big on keeping the character concept strict, and not into the Barbarian/Warlock/Wizard/Assassin/Monk kinds of builds hehe.

So with that said, what is the benefit to daggers instead of darts? Availability? Darts have identical damage and farther range than daggers and weigh/cost half as much. I don't plan on wielding 2 daggers to fight, rather rapier/shortsword. With quick draw I could easily throw my weapons, then quick draw my swords next round in melee and still get full attack. Or quick draw, move, partial attack. There must be some other benefit I'm not realizing.

Also some basic thrower class questions. How expensive/feasible is carrying a ton of thrown weapons around? Or can I expect some sort of magic item to supply me items so I don't have to walk around with 100 daggers in my backpack hehe. I really want to be able to focus on throwing until I'm forced to engage in melee, then easily step in and get some SA flanking with my TWF. Then if I get arcane stunt and get in trouble I could easily expeditious retreat out of combat and start throwing again(at least in theory).

I'm gonna have to read up on swordsage.. I'd like to think of my guy as being sort of a medieval gunslinger that can dance around picking out targets until he has to get close, then can whip out some swords and do some fancy footwork. Acrobatic backstab, expeditious retreat and any other skill tricks I can use to make this happen.

 

[vageta31]

One more thing. I had really, really wanted my guy to be a "face" for this campaign since it would fit my concept better, but my rolls just didn't allow it without giving up something else. My DM won't allow me shift my rolls around! So with that said, would it kill this build to drop my str to 9 and take a -1 penalty and let my CHA hit 15 so I can do all my face skills? At level one I'd likely be doing mostly throwing/range, then at level 2 I'd get weapon finesse with no problems. Once I got the palm feat I wouldn't get added str damage to thrown weapons as well.

However I'd lose +2 to all melee attack damage, and would have a pitiful weight allowance. Could this easily be made up with cheaper magic items by lvl 3 or 4? Or is it wise to just be fugly and focus on being a combat specialist? Or vice versa, keep the str and get some sort of decent CHA items to at least bring it to 0 penalty so I can bluff, check intent, diplomacy, etc...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I really like the idea of dipping Master Thrower early to pick up the trick and quick draw, then finishing up swash/rogue. I hadn't considered that before. The only thing I'd consider is taking swash 3 before rogue 4 to get the insightful strike before master thrower, then uncanny dodge after. Partially because with the palm trick I get no +str damage, but I'd still get my +2 int to damage and with TWF I'd get 4 attacks so that's easy extra damage. And also because I have no real world experience with how good uncanny dodge really is and if it would benefit me more for those 3 levels.

How much do you like having dex to AC?
I mean, Insightful is only +2 damage for you... Maybe it is more worth it, the thing with Rogue is that you're not just getting UD, you're also getting penetrating strike and 4 more skill points per level. Hmm...taking rogue later may actually be a good idea though, to top off on rogue class skills when the max ranks are higher (ie, at ECL 4, you can only have 7 ranks in UMD, but at ECL 8 you can pump it up to 11 ranks, and if you're doing it outside of the rogue class, you're paying double). Regarding palm throw...I was actually thinking for the build of getting trip shot first and spending the earlier levels relying on skills and tripping over damage dealing, since until daring outlaw, craven, and assassin's stance kick in, you're only getting 2d6 SA and with palm throw SA basically IS your damage. Again, your way might be better, though.

Also like the idea of having mediocre SA dice early on, but then getting a nice mid level boost after all of my skills come together. I'm not sure if I can squeeze in anything from ToB, but I wouldn't rule it out. As I mentioned he's a new DM and I really don't want to overwhelm him. However by the time we get to that level range I'm sure he'll totally be into the swing of things and may be ok with me taking a few things if it goes along with my character build concept. He seems really big on keeping the character concept strict, and not into the Barbarian/Warlock/Wizard/Assassin/Monk kinds of builds hehe.

If you really wanted to break the game, you wouldn't be making thrower. There is literally nothing you can do that will be ridiculously overpowered. Really, a lot of this optimization is just to make your combat method viable... You may need to multiclass a bunch, and the maneuver system is a little tricky to learn (no where near as complicated as the system they have for swapping maneuvers at level 4+ in the classes, though, be glad that won't be in your build!).

So with that said, what is the benefit to daggers instead of darts? Availability? Darts have identical damage and farther range than daggers and weigh/cost half as much.

Darts:
+Twice the range of daggers
+Lesser weight; might be a factor when you're keeping 20+ at a time out of your extradimensional travelling bag for use
+1/4 the price; completely irrelevant by level 2 or 3

Daggers:
+Higher threat range, 19-20
+Flexibility of being used in melee or at range without penalty
+Flexibility of slashing OR piercing damage; it is one of the few ranged slashing weapons in the game
+Availability; as you inquired, they are very common, you will likely find far more magical daggers than darts
+Are a Shadow Hand weapon, so you can get free weapon focus with it and apply Dex to damage with Shadow Blade feat
+Not very important, but gets a +2 bonus to hide on your person w/ Sleight of Hand

So, yeah. Daggers are the generally better weapon, though at low levels for purely throwing, keeping a bunch of darts is certainly not a bad idea. Also do note that SA is limited to 30 ft range, so the range advantage is also minimal (again, for 2000 gp, gauntlets of extended range will double those increments).

I don't plan on wielding 2 daggers to fight, rather rapier/shortsword. With quick draw I could easily throw my weapons, then quick draw my swords next round in melee and still get full attack. Or quick draw, move, partial attack. There must be some other benefit I'm not realizing.

Basically it's just simple convenience. You can do melee, ranged, slashing, or piercing all with the same awesome little weapon, so it becomes handy to put things like Weapon Focus towards the dagger. The damage is low, but you're relying on SA and Int for most of your damage anyway. And dagger is only 1 lower damage on average than rapier or shortsword.

Also some basic thrower class questions. How expensive/feasible is carrying a ton of thrown weapons around? Or can I expect some sort of magic item to supply me items so I don't have to walk around with 100 daggers in my backpack hehe. I really want to be able to focus on throwing until I'm forced to engage in melee, then easily step in and get some SA flanking with my TWF. Then if I get arcane stunt and get in trouble I could easily expeditious retreat out of combat and start throwing again(at least in theory).

As long as they're mundane, it's inexpensive. That's the problem with throwing builds w/o Bloodstorm Blade (to re-use the same weapon for a full thrown attack), though. It never becomes affordable or feasible to have a bunch of even just +1 weapons to chuck around, so DR/magic really screws you. Heward's Haversack and bags of holding are both cheap options to store your many weapons. You only need to keep like 4-5 rounds of full attacks' worth on your immediate person going into a fight, IMO. For items to produce weapons for you, I named them, both from MIC. Gloves of Endless Javelins, and Gauntlet of Infinite Blades. Former costs more, gives javelins (can't palm throw AND not a SH weapon!), and the javelins vanish upon use. But, it's a free action to produce one, so you can full attack with them, and they are all +1 weapons (suck it, DR/magic!). Latter is cheaper, gives daggers (yay!), and the daggers last for 3 rounds after being created. But, they aren't magical (you can grant the produced dagger magic properties a few times/day) and it's a swift to activate, so you can only get one dagger per round.

For your Arcane Stunt, I highly recommend Blur over Expeditious Retreat. It also saves your ass, screws over rival rogues, arguably gives you the ability to hide (since it gives concealment, you'd still need to create a diversion to hide, though), and is less simple to duplicate via UMD. Expeditious Retreat is a level 1 spell that lasts min/level, so you can get the benefit as a cheap wand/scroll.

I'm gonna have to read up on swordsage.. I'd like to think of my guy as being sort of a medieval gunslinger that can dance around picking out targets until he has to get close, then can whip out some swords and do some fancy footwork. Acrobatic backstab, expeditious retreat and any other skill tricks I can use to make this happen.

Acrobatic Backstab is a trap. Requires a moderately high level to get, need to make a DC 25+ check just to use it, and it's only good for one melee SA. Unless your party is completely disfunctional, you should be able to just DC 15 tumble around an enemy and get into a flank with an ally just fine for your one SA. Even if the party's all casters with no melee, have them cast Summon Flanking Buddy 1. Again, Swordsage helps here, there's a level 1 Desert Wind maneuver called Distracting Ember. Swift action to use, creates a flanking buddy for one round, so you can actually get a FULL attack off.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

One more thing. I had really, really wanted my guy to be a "face" for this campaign since it would fit my concept better, but my rolls just didn't allow it without giving up something else. My DM won't allow me shift my rolls around! So with that said, would it kill this build to drop my str to 9 and take a -1 penalty and let my CHA hit 15 so I can do all my face skills? At level one I'd likely be doing mostly throwing/range, then at level 2 I'd get weapon finesse with no problems. Once I got the palm feat I wouldn't get added str damage to thrown weapons as well.

However I'd lose +2 to all melee attack damage, and would have a pitiful weight allowance. Could this easily be made up with cheaper magic items by lvl 3 or 4? Or is it wise to just be fugly and focus on being a combat specialist? Or vice versa, keep the str and get some sort of decent CHA items to at least bring it to 0 penalty so I can bluff, check intent, diplomacy, etc...

I think you should go for it with the charisma. I think you'll have a more interesting character that way, rather than one built to do a few more points of damage. Low levels will be rough, so just fight like a coward.

Darts at low levels for the low weight is definitely a consideration in that case, and you'd want a handy haversack quickly. Bags of holding are actually kinda heavy.

 

[vageta31]

Thanks again for all the info, you've answered more about a throwing build than I've been able to scrape up the last couple of days. Most threads revolve around the over the top optimized thrower build, whereas I wanted some mundane information that helps someone that is starting there campaign broke at level 1

I'll have to think on the CHA vs STR. My heart says CHA since this is a RP game and it fits my concept, but my brain says STR and survivability wins out. In a way it might be kind of cool to be a bit gimped in a physical stat and have to carefully work around it instead of just having awesome rolls that you take for granted. Kind of forces you to truly get in character and consider your tactics and options. But seriously how are so many people getting the "my rolls are this... 18,16,16,14,15,12.. If only I were that lucky!

Oh and I looked up swordsage and the assassin stance is a level 3 manuever, not that it really matters it's just one more level. And I was thinking of blur, but I guess I don't quite understand how it works... basically grants me concealment for one round and that gives me a good chance to move to cover and hide on my turn? Or just to stand there and the mobs get a 20% less chance to hit me?

Will pick up a haversack asap, but I really don't know how much gold to expect early on. I started with 140gp to buy all I needed so 2k still sounds like a lot!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

No problem!

How badly are you gimping str, hypothetically? I think you can live with a starting 9 str, if you meant putting the 7 there, yeah, that'd be too painful. I originally said to switch it like this: Str 9, Wis 7, Cha 15. In any case, you've got a ton of odd scores, you should even them out with your bonus ability score point every 4 levels, starting with dex.

Maneuver levels are like spell levels, level 3 means you need to be a 5th level initator-- it's sort of like caster level, except you add half your levels from other classes to it as well; thus at ECL 5 (SS 1 / other stuff 4) you have Initiator Level (IL) 3 for level 2 maneuvers and at ECL 9 (SS 1 / other stuff 8) you have IL 5 for 3rd level maneuvers -- just so you understand.

Blur gives you 20% concealment, so you get hit less. Since hide says you cover or concealment to use the skill, you may be able to "hide in the blur," though I doubt most DMs would let that fly.

As for money, the amount you gain grows exponentially fast with levels. The DMG has a table for starting wealth by level to show how much wealth roughly a PC should have at the start of each level, check it out to see what I mean. I think it was like p. 235, check the tables index in the back of the book.

 

[vageta31]

Thanks for the clarification on the SS levels, I figured you knew what you were talking about and I had misunderstood. I really like your build idea, it all kind of comes together around level 9 and 10(I love it when a plan comes together..).

You're right about the game breaking stuff, and how this build even with craven, rapid shot, twf and palm trick simply isn't enough to do it. I think I'll just have to play it by ear with the DM, but since we have a Wizard in the party I doubt anything I do will outmatch his possibilities. Our ranger is also planning on multiclassing into druid so that could get ugly if he's read as much about their uberness as I have.

It's funny as I've been playing computer and console RPGs for a long time and always powergame and try to build the absolute best guy, and I never really put much thought into pnp D&D being worse than all of them! I started reading up and was just amazed at how much time and effort has been put into squeezing every little advantage and rule stretching option into a build. I didn't want to go that route at all, though it's hard to just put a few levels together without forethought and just hope for the best.

What's funny is I'm always so into maxing my characters in these games, but then it gets boring to a point. I almost always go back at some point and crank up the difficulty to max and purposely gimp myself to become truly immersed and offer a significant challenge.

At any rate my list of "needs" is definitely a haversack, those gloves with free far shot are nice as I'm low on feats already and a full SA at 30ft with no neg attack is nice, and maybe some sort of str belt as soon as I can to help out my weakness should I decide to go CHA. With the UMD and other cha skills it truly might be useful. I'm quite sure by my DMs comments(who happens to be an engineer at my workplace hehe) will give us plenty of options for roleplaying with NPCs so it could come in handy and maybe even allow me to barter a bit for good prices or the like. There's also a Ranger in my party with high wis and we've already discussed that we will both help scout. He will handle the wis skills and I'll focus on the dex/int ones so neither of us blow a bunch of extra skill points making up for negative mods. This would allow me to max out my cha face skills, especially UMD. I'm playing a Rogue/Swash in neverwinter nights 2 right now and the UMD is super useful already!

Again thanks for taking the time to answer my more mundane questions. There's a wealth of info out there but digging through it is daunting. This is my first ever campaign and I'm stoked to be starting in on Friday night.

 

[Thanael]

No. You can pick your level up feat before choosing your class. Otherwise a lot of sample NPC entries typically listed after the prestige classes wouldn't work out.

No; you have to take a level of a class in order to gain skill ranks or feats. Since PrCs require that you satisfy its requirements before taking it, you cannot take a PrC on the same level that you qualify for it via skills or feats.

Same as you can't use the BAB+1 of a martial prc to qualify for it. That would be madness!

See also p58, 59 in the PHB.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

In the case of BAB, you can't gain it until after you take a level in the class. Level up feats are independent of class selection, so don't need a specific class level to get the feat (or the +1 ability score point, for that matter).

P. 58-59 never says that is the required order of operations for levelling up, it's just a guide to help newbies. And if you want to be pedantic about things, there's plenty of fodder in the text there to make a case for my view:

"7. Feats: Upon attaining 3rd level and at every 3rd level thereafter, the character gains one feat of your choice. The character must meet any prerequisites for the feat in order to select it. As with ability score increases, it is the overall character level, not the class level, that determines when a character gets a new feat."

Look at that, in the same paragraph they say it happens "upon attaining" the level (upon typically meaning immediately, not after a brief wait) and that class level has absolutely nothing to do with when you get the feat. Cheeky!

It doesn't matter if you pick the feat before or after gaining your class level, it is independent of that, other than possibly needing the class up benefits like BAB to meet qualifications for the feat.

EDIT: Also, if you took those pages as a literal must-do order for levelling up, then you would be unable to take a feat that required a class feature you just gained with that level up (say the +2d6 skirmish damage requirement of Improved Skirmish, for example), as class features and spells are both listed after feats on those pages, even though I'm *pretty* sure gaining a class level and gaining its corresponding class features and spells happens simultaneously. So you would both not be able to use the feat to help qualify FOR a class by taking it first, AND be unable to use the benefits of your new class level to qualify for the feat AFTERWARDS, either. Does that sound logical at all to you?

 

[vageta31]

So I was messing around with some of the previous build options and had a few ideas. Since a lot of builds around here assume you're starting off at a higher level it doesn't always take progression into account. I want my character to be able to survive and do some damage and not have to wait till level 12 to be useful.

1) Rogue1, SA 1d6, Trapfinding, lvl1 Feat: TWF, Human Feat: PBS
2) Swash1, Weapon Finesse
3) Rogue2, Evasion, lvl3 Feat: precise shot
4) Rogue3, Penetrating Strike (from Dungeonscape), SA 2d6
5) Fighter, bonus feat: WF: dagger
6) Fighter, bonus feat: far shot or rapid shot? , lvl 6 feat: craven
7) MT1, Quickdraw, Thrown Weapon Trick
8) Swash2, Arcane Stunt
9) Swash3, Insightful strike, lvl 9 feat: Daring outlaw (SA 3d6)
10) Rogue4, Uncanny dodge (SA 4d6)
11) Swordsage1, Quick to Act +1, 6 maneuvers, 1 stance (child of shadow or island of blades), weapon focus [shadow hand] (ask to retrain former feat to ITWF)
12) SS2, 1 maneuver, Assassin's Stance (bringing SA to 6d6), AC bonus (likely useless), lvl 12 feat: Shadow blade
13-17) Master Thrower 2-5
18-20) rogue or SB

2 levels of fighter would net me 2 bonus feats which can be the ones required for MT, then my normal feats could be craven early on do maximize my low SA dice. I'd have to wait for daring outlaw and insightful strike, but craven could help make up for the damage at those levels. Negative is the two fighter feats would take up an extra SA dice if I were to finish up with rogue/swash combo.

Of course I could move that build around in just about any way I wanted. Focus is getting as much as I can early. I thought about dropping swash completely and not spending a feat on daring outlaw, but the free weapon finesse(which would use that extra feat Id gain), arcane stunt and insightful strike seem pretty good for this build. I could always do just 2 swash early on, but then Id only be one level from the +int damage bonus so it'd be hard not to want to take it.

Of course in the end I may not even be able to take swordsage from ToB and would just go with extra rogue/swash to keep the SA up. It just seems a 2 fighter dip early in this build could help it out at the expense of getting a few other things later. I like far shot and the gloves are nice, but at some point I'd want to get +dex gloves. Guess I could get far shot later and use the gloves as long as possible.