D&D 3E/3.5 3.5e Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower?

[StreamOfTheSky]

If MIC is allowed, then so is its changes to magic items. Which means, you can apply basic stuff like dex +2 to an existing item for no increased cost (beyond what it normally costs, rather than 1.5x that amount for stacking a second effect on the item). So you can have gloves of (something) AND dex +2/4/6. And really, with the low cost things like Extended Range, paying +50% to stack it on another pair of gloves or even +100% to make it into a non-body slot item isn't so awful later on.

Also, I like that you kept my bolding for Assassin's Stance.

EDIT: The ask to retrain bit... It has to be retrained to a feat that you could have qualified for back then. So if you're retraining a weapon focus feat you took at level 5, you can't retrain it to ITWF, which requires BAB +6. That's why I did Craven in my build. It's not that I think you needed Craven right then necessarily. It was just the first feat I thought of on your wish list that you could have taken at level 1.

 

[vageta31]

I didn't realize about the retraining rules. Is there any RAW about retraining feats or is it mostly house rules? I'm not exactly sure about the MIC but I'll probably find out a lot tomorrow night when we start. I'm sure we'll lay down some basic ground rules about what's going to be allowed and what's not.

This optimizing stuff can be headache work hehe. There are so many ways to go about it and difficult to really decide the best route. There is some hit and run fighter variant from DotU that allows you to lose heavy armor and shield prof with the fighter(that I wouldn't need) but gain a +2 combat initiative and.. something else. Someone had mentioned it wasn't a drow specific variant though I'd have to research it.

I also saw that it might be possible to take my first SS level before Master thrower to pick up the weapon focus and not even have to retrain it. Though I'd probably have to take the 2nd SS level later due to the way the initiator levels(sp?) you mentioned worked, and I still don't fully understand that anyways.

Also I'm hoping maybe since my build will be so specific and not uber powerful, that the DM might work with me and allow me some leeway with magic items and feats. I heard there was some quiiver that has endless arrows, so perhaps I could talk him into letting me get an enchanted bandolier that works the same with daggers or something custom like that. Or changing the javelin gauntlets into ones that have the same properties but create daggers.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The official retraining rules are in PHB2, I'm pretty sure they require that you could have made a character from 1-20 with the new feats implemented, though I just use my own houserules (basically just that; you have to have been able to get the feat at the level you're placing it into your build, I don't have any costs or limits on how often you can retrain other than a general "don't push it" for using it often.)

And yes, you can enter SS 1 at any time, I'd recommend level 5+ so that you can get 2nd level maneuvers, or just simply 9+ if you don't care about getting Weapon Focus from it before Master Thrower. The two most important maneuvers for you, Cloak of Deception and Distracting Ember, are level 2 and 1, respectively, anyway. There's lots of awesome level 3 maneuvers, but nothing crucial. Desert Wind also has a level 2 maneuver to get an extra attack with all attacks suffering -2 to hit that you can stack with TWF, though I think it restricts you to melee attacks.

 

[vageta31]

I was only thinking SS 1 early to get weapon focus and not having to retrain. Once I see how my DM will be on the rules it may not even matter. I have a feeling even levle 6 is a long ways away unless we do some serious marathon sessions.

I really like the idea of SS the more I read about it, though I must admit the maneuvers and stances are quite confusing. It sort of fits what I had in mind for my character though. I abhore the big, brutish fighters in RPGs anymore. I always shy away from them due to their boringness. I'd much rather use someone who is faster and more tactical than a heavy armored, angry meat shield. Just a personal preference. I wanted to build someone that has a lot of options and tricks up their sleeves, even if some aren't used all that often. That's why I was really wanting to get swash with arcane stunt, pick up some skill tricks, master thrower to mix in ranged but still be able to tumble around in the thick of things when needed. Swordsage with it's stances and maneuvers just fits right in with that concept.

With that said I started thining the Trip trick from MT would be a better first option.... Palm trick only gets SA on half of your daggers due to counting as a volley attack. So with 2 main hand attacks, ITWF and rapid shot(if it stacked), would be 10 daggers, but only 5 get SA. Still not bad with craven, but the tripping has some opportunities. If I'm understanding correctly, with precise shot I could trip up someone in melee with the figher while still doing my normal damage. Then the fighter would get advantage over that creature(I'm assuming if the fighters attack round comes before the creatures since it wouldn't be able to stand up until then).

One more thing, sounds like you are/were a DM for 3.5. What are you feelings on things like Craven, the fighter ACF from DotU, etc... Craven seems to be accepted by a lot of DMs, though if I read correctly it came from a book focused on evil characters (and I'm chaotic neutral). Also DotU seems focused entirely on Drows, though as I said someone had mentioned through some rule or logic that ACF didn't have racial prereqs.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Just remember that by tripping them, you're giving yourself a -4 to hit from range them until they get up. It's still nice to help the fighter, as you said, or to simply keep your distance and make it take longer for an enemy to close with you.

My feelings on Craven are that it's definitely overpowered compared to any other similar feat options by level 7ish, so much so that there's basically no reason not to take it if you qualify after some levels. However, Rogue is a weak class, sneak attack is very limited, and the game is FULL of no-brainer build options (the grand-daddy of them all being Natural Spell for Druids, of course), so it doesn't bother me and I allow it.

I've only skimmed DotU, but it's definitely not only for drow. The item I refer to it all the time for, Imperious Command feat, has nothing to do with race and is just a really awesome intimidate buff. You mentioned the hit and run fighter, there's also a fear-based armor enhancement to trigger even more demoralizing, and so on. So the book probably has stuff for lots of classes and characters.

(Another book, btw, that you'd probably never consider to look at but is actually really cool is Lords of Madness, the book on Aberrations. It has a feat to let you use hide and move silently to foil blindsight and other super-senses that many consider essential for anyone who plans to focus on being sneaky. Less related to you but still cool, it has a feat called Mindsight to use telepathy to instantly detect sentient creatures within your telepathy range, like a sort of sonar, a feat to reroll a failed save against stunning or daze (clearly geared towards Mind FLayers' mind blast, but useful in general), and a metamagic feat to shoot spells as laser beams out of your eyes! And the actual meat of the book describing the alien-like aberrant races is a great read, also.)

 

[vageta31]

I probably would be interested in the book and feats mentioned, it's my DM that wouldn't Mind flayers.. wow now that's one of the quintessential D&D monsters that I knew were badasses back when my friends were playing 2.0. Though personally I've always had a soft spot for liches.

So on MT tricks... do some stack? I gather you can use any one of them during any full attack.. but do some work together? I know that you can't palm throw and try to trip.. but what about using weak spot with every attack? Palm throw and weak spot while they're flat footed seems like it'd be overly nasty, especially with Craven. Of all of the tricks, weak spot just seems to be something that is simply applied to any attack if you choose it to be.

Also if I understand correctly, the trip trick works with any "normal" attack. Meaning if using TWF, high BAB and rapid shot and got 4 to 5 shots off, would they all have a chance to trip? Which could be bad.. if the first one that hits trips, the others would have -4 to hit? Or could I choose which of the attacks I wanted to trip.. like say the last one or two? Some of this stuff is so open for interpretation if you're not used to them. Or maybe I could just do a single(not full attack) for the trip, then use my move action to get into flanking position while he's down so when he stands up it's melee SA time.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I wasn't aware that Trip Shot and Palm Throw DIDN'T stack. Where do you get that notion from? Maybe you don't get two trip checks for each volley, but you certainly still get the normal one per attack.

Weak Spot may seem very powerful, but just think about if you were using ray spells (my favorite is acid splash, it's a level 0 spell that allows no SR, and then you stack Xd6 sneak attack on it...yummy). Those also hit touch AC, so anytime you catch a foe flatfooted and can sneak attack, he would also have meager AC. It's really not that great, fighter types get full BAB and feats or class features to boost their accuracy even more, and flatfooted isn't usually a huge help to rogues since many monsters have like almost no dex and massive insane amounts of natural armor.

You can trip on any ranged attack from more than 5 ft away. And you should be able to choose to not trip if you want.

 

[vageta31]

That's all it was, just a notion. When I read through the MT description it doesn't seem to give much specifics to how/when the tricks can be used. So it sounds like they are full time useable if you choose to. I just didn't understand which were stackable. So theoretically I could do a palm trick with 4 attacks(2 main hand, 1 off hand + rapid shot), thus making 8 daggers. 4 of them would have the chance to trip if I chose them to be, as well as doing their full damage(+SA if flat footed), while the other 4 do normal (no SA) damage... AND they could all be touch attacks if I so chose?

What I'm also not sure of is if they can only be used in a full attack, or if I could still do a move action and then partial attack while still using the tricks. Ie; move 15ft, partial attack with palm/throw trick which would only get 2 daggers...

At any rate I'm really liking the idea of the MT class, even if it's not uber powerful. And the fact that it takes so many feats I'm hoping my DM will allow some things out to help me since I'm not just going for cookie cutter power classes. I was reading about some gloves that turn any weapon throw from them into +1 up to +5 enhancement. If I could get some sort of custom bandolier with unlimited daggers(like the quiver that exists) then I could alleviate a lot of the inherent problems with the thrower build. I could also use one of the rogue vests that add +1d6 damage if I wished to really build up my SA damage.

I wasn't aware that Trip Shot and Palm Throw DIDN'T stack. Where do you get that notion from? Maybe you don't get two trip checks for each volley, but you certainly still get the normal one per attack.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No. You can pick your level up feat before choosing your class. Otherwise a lot of sample NPC entries typically listed after the prestige classes wouldn't work out.

No, you can't.

You are not a 9th-level character until you have 9 class levels; ergo, you do not get a feat until after you pick your class.

 

[vageta31]

Quick update.. We started our campaign last night and I ended up with a free Combat Reflexes feat and +2 bluff/diplomacy/intent vs nobility. Our DM took our back stories and gave us all a little bonus that fit our story. I hadn't planned taking the Combat Reflexes feat since I'll be so cramped already so it's a nice free addition.

I read somewhere, and don't remember if it's a house rule, that with quick draw you'd be able to pull out your weapon during an AoO if you were unarmed. So say I threw darts and thus unarmed after my attack round, I could theoretically as a free action draw my short swords during an AoO? Otherwise it's not going to go well unless I've already got my swords out. Well unless with quick draw I could simply fire off 2 throws anytime someone steps my threat area.

As a side note the game went very well. Had even more fun that I expected and the bonuses he gave were a nice addition. I'll probably make a post about my first experience with pnp as I greatly enjoyed it.-