D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5e] Will they fix the other H spell?

[Shard O'Glase]

A cleric I run would prepare hold person all the time after the conversion to 3rd Edition, and I don't think anyone ever missed their save against the spell. I actually stopped preparing it, because I never found any use for it. At least sound burst does damage in an area with no save...

I'd think that would be unusual. A cleric with a 16wis makes that a DC15 save, most humaoids at the level you get it have a +1ish save on a good day, so it should succeed about 65% of the time. Either mysitcally you only face people with good will saves, the DM has phenomial luck when rolling against you, or the DM is fudging IMO.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

So?

http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/cha_feats.htm#unyielding_soul

Consider that eternally banned in any of my campaigns. It's turning effects that will seriously harm you into something that will be just an inconvenience of a couple points of damage. That's just not right.


And hold person is not really a save or die spell, since you can still resist the damage dealt to you, your allies can still protect you, and the spell can be dispelled (try dispelling destruction!).

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Hold Person only works on a limited range of creatures - at the low levels you won't have a good save DC, and at the high levels your low-level spells still won't have a good save DC.

Being freed from the Hold if a CdG fails against you sounds cool, however.

 

[hong]

Consider that eternally banned in any of my campaigns. It's turning effects that will seriously harm you into something that will be just an inconvenience of a couple points of damage. That's just not right.

Oh, I dunno; if you take 9d8 damage from a dominate monster, you'll probably feel it.... And if the 2d8 from a hold person is just pissy, well, that says something about the spell's putative level, doesn't it?

And hold person is not really a save or die spell, since you can still resist the damage dealt to you, your allies can still protect you, and the spell can be dispelled (try dispelling destruction!).

Yeah, yeah, and harm isn't a damage-dealing spell, it just sets your hit points to a specified amount. Whatever, d00d.

 

[Vysirez]

Oh, I dunno; if you take 9d8 damage from a dominate monster, you'll probably feel it.... And if the 2d8 from a hold person is just pissy, well, that says something about the spell's putative level, doesn't it?

The problem with that is you are allowed to use it after you have attempted to save. So that feat turns a 9th lvl wizard spell to a 9d8 or nothing spell. Comparing to the 9th lvl damage spell meteor swarm you are looking at 24d6 unavoidable vs 9d8/nothing.

 

[hong]

The problem with that is you are allowed to use it after you have attempted to save.

... usable a limited no. of times per day.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Being freed from the Hold if a CdG fails against you sounds cool, however.

Also remember that the cleric himself cannot CdG you until his next turn or even the turn after that, and your allies' turn will be before that. You have to hold someone with an ally of yours right beside him, who comes after you but before the target's allies to make it a save or die spell (and also, the CdG'er may risk a AoO himself). And even then you have a second save against that CdG!

Oh, I dunno; if you take 9d8 damage from a dominate monster, you'll probably feel it.... And if the 2d8 from a hold person is just pissy, well, that says something about the spell's putative level, doesn't it?

even those 9d8 are nothing compared to the fact that you actually had to attack your friends now, weakening "your" side and strenghtening the enemy.

Yeah, yeah, and harm isn't a damage-dealing spell, it just sets your hit points to a specified amount. Whatever, d00d.

Don't be silly. As pointed out above, it's more like a save-twice-or-die-and-only-if-the-circumstances-are-against-you spell than a real save or die spell. Against a real save or die spell, you fail the save, you die. with hold, you still get another save, and you still have the chance that your allies will help you!

 

[hong]

even those 9d8 are nothing compared to the fact that you actually had to attack your friends now, weakening "your" side and strenghtening the enemy.

Hey, if someone wants to use up three feats (Iron Will, Indomitable, Unyielding Soul) and pump up their Charisma for this, might as well make it worth it, right?

Don't be silly.

Kaeyoss, Kaeyoss, Kaeyoss.

As pointed out above, it's more like a save-twice-or-die-and-only-if-the-circumstances-are-against-you spell than a real save or die spell. Against a real save or die spell, you fail the save, you die. with hold, you still get another save, and you still have the chance that your allies will help you!

The point is that hold person is a 2nd level spell, usable by 3rd level casters. The fact that it's possible to take someone completely out of the game at 3rd level is what's important. Even if you can't CdG them immediately, the fact that they're rendered impotent is often more than enough. See previous comment about rebuke.

But do keep going. At this rate, you'll be saying that disintegrate should be 4th level before long.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

The point is that hold person is a 2nd level spell, usable by 3rd level casters. The fact that it's possible to take someone completely out of the game at 3rd level is what's important. Even if you can't CdG them immediately, the fact that they're rendered impotent is often more than enough. See previous comment about rebuke.

But do keep going. At this rate, you'll be saying that disintegrate should be 4th level before long.

As I pointed out before there are two first level spells that have the same effect as Hold Person. Both Sleep and Color spray will completely incapacitate a victim allowing a CDG. Hold Person is a second level spell because it doesn't have the HD limitation that both of the 1st level spellls have. If you feel that Hold Person is too powerful the same came be said for these spells as well. All of these spells do not result in instant death and allow several for your allies to help you. My characters have been held several times, never has an enemy had a chance to CDG me because my allies had time to protect me.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hey, if someone wants to use up three feats (Iron Will, Indomitable, Unyielding Soul) and pump up their Charisma for this, might as well make it worth it, right?

It's still an awfully powerful thing, even after 3 feats (although many won't be able to use it, cause of the cha-dump trend).

Kaeyoss, Kaeyoss, Kaeyoss.

You know, you're lucky my name's not Hastur.....

The point is that hold person is a 2nd level spell, usable by 3rd level casters. The fact that it's possible to take someone completely out of the game at 3rd level is what's important. Even if you can't CdG them immediately, the fact that they're rendered impotent is often more than enough. See previous comment about rebuke.

Sleep's 1st level, so is color spray. Both do comparable things. And they aren't even limited to persons.

And since Hold Person is only 2nd level, your DC won't be that awfully high.

Also, a CR 1 orc could easily take out a 1st-level char with a single stroke: a normal hit will almost certainly drop the wizard, and can reduce everyone else to negative hit points. With a critical... Is this to be banned, too?

But do keep going. At this rate, you'll be saying that disintegrate should be 4th level before long.

I have told you ten billion times you should not exaggerate!