D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5E] Will Warriors be on equal footing with casters?

[Zaruthustran]

The group I'm normally playing Living Greyhawk includes an 8th level multiclassed fighter who regularly deals 50-75 points of damage per round if he's facing crittable foes with low to moderate ACs. Against foes with higher ACs, that goes down to 30-40 points of damage per round.

Would you mind posting the build, or giving a little more info? That fighter sounds impressive.

-z

 

[LostSoul]

Re: Re: High-level Fighters

Just like every other class's class abilities won't cut it. That's hardly unique to fighters.

Creating magical items is a class ability of spell casters.

 

[Victim]

Maybe there should be magical crafting feats availible to everyone then. They could require numerous Craft ranks in the appropriate skill.

Spell Penetration, similar abilities and indirect spells will help against SR foes. With one feat, a caster will generally have a better than 50% shot against SR, even if fighting a tough monster. The new SR is actually pretty tame compared to 2e style MR.

 

[Cedric]

I think that most spell casters in 3rd, especially wizards, have lost a good deal of power compared to earlier editions.

Their number of spells/day has been dramatically reduced. At higher levels things have very high saves and most things have SR. But worst of all...omg the hit points. Even at mid-levels everything has SOOO many hit points and none of the damage spells were scaled to reflect this fact.

No, I think melee oriented characters are much more powerful in 3rd edition. They all have their weaknesses, but I feel that wizards have had their teeth pulled.

Cedric

p.s. Clerics are the most powerful class in the game now...imo

 

[nameless]

If in the category that spell casters in 3rd, especially wizards, have had their teeth completely pulled.

Their number of spells/day has been dramatically reduced. At higher levels things have very high saves and most things have SR. But worst of all...omg the hit points. Even at mid-levels everything has SOOO many hit points.

No, I think melee oriented characters are much more powerful in 3rd edition. They all have their weaknesses, but I feel that wizards have had their teeth pulled.

I noticed this too, when I first started playing 3E. I thought wizards were nerfed badly, but then I noticed that it was me playing badly. In order to conserve spells, a wizard can't afford to use more than one spell on a particular enemy, and against hordes of weak enemies, he'll need a much better rate than that.

So each offensive spell needs to fill various roles. Evocations are only good against hordes of goblins, but you'll need a good variety otherwise. A Summon IV, V, or VI is always pretty useful and versatile, at low levels Glitterdust and Shatter can work wonders. Evard's Black Tentacles can disable and then kill loads of enemies in a pretty wide AOE. Various Wall spells can seal off enemies to divide and conquer. Fighters can do a lot of damage, but without a tactical advantage, they'll get whittled down pretty quickly. Blinding or stunning or slowing opponents can usually be enough that a fighter whittles down the HP.

Item creation also helps a lot, especially if you can afford permanent items like Eyes of the Medusa. As long as you're doing something to contribute, it's a good effort.

 

[Victim]

I think that most spell casters in 3rd, especially wizards, have lost a good deal of power compared to earlier editions.

Their number of spells/day has been dramatically reduced. At higher levels things have very high saves and most things have SR. But worst of all...omg the hit points. Even at mid-levels everything has SOOO many hit points and none of the damage spells were scaled to reflect this fact.

No, I think melee oriented characters are much more powerful in 3rd edition. They all have their weaknesses, but I feel that wizards have had their teeth pulled.

Cedric

p.s. Clerics are the most powerful class in the game now...imo

The obvious solution then is don't use so many damaging spells. I like the fact that a wizard can't just blast away. Use the right spell for the right job. Against the usually high HP fighter type monsters, effects like Slow and Confusion can work wonders. Against other magic users or mid size spell resistant enemies, Evard's Black Tentacles works wonders. Drop it on top of a wizard, rogue, or Mindflayer and watch the carnage.

Besides HP, saves and magic resistance seem easier to deal with than in 2e. Also, with bonus spells from high INT, wizards of all levels will have more spells to cast.

For a little bit longer anyway, wizards can also cast 2 spells per round.

 

[Cedric]

You guys make some great points, and I agree with you whole-heartedly.

The smart wizard needs to find new ways to affect the world and help the party.

However, a number of people didn't want the role of wizards to change. I solve this in my games by removing dice caps from lightning bolt, magic missile and a few other spells.

Cedric

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

He's not my character so I don't know all the details:

Human Ftr 4/Bbn1/Rgr1/Rog 2
Str 18, Dex 16, Con ?, Int ?, Wis 10(12), Cha ?
Weapon Focus: Falchion, Weapon Specialization: Falchion, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack, Iron Will; Skills: Search +6, Tumble +14

Equip. +1 Falchion, +1 morning star (to loan out, he doesn't dual wield), +1 mithral chain shirt, periapt of Wisdom +2

Usual buffs: Bull's Strength, Endurance

The last two modules I played with the character, he ended up in this configuration:
Str 26 (bull's strength and rage)
Atk +17/+12 (2d4+15 18-20/x2 falchion)

That's only an average 20 points of damage per hit. However, against monsters with ACs lower than 20, he'll often dump six points into power attack for the following attacks:
Atk +11/+6 (2d4+21 18-20/x2)--avg 26 damage/hit excluding crits.

If someone provides a flank (which usually happens--we're a smart group) that's
+13/+8 (2d4+21 +1d6 (18-20/x2)) --avg 29.5 damage/hit excluding crits.

When my character casts Haste on him, that's
+13/+13/+8 (2d4+21 +1d6 (18-20/x2)) --avg 29.5 damage/hit excluding crits.

If he gets a flank (and he usually does), that's almost 50 points/hit without power attack or haste. Against foes with poor ACs, he pumps up the power attack and usually scores a bit over 50 point/round unless he crits (which happens once every 2-3 rounds) in which case it's more like 75.

If he's hasted, his usual damage is around 75/round even without crits.

According to the munchkinizer, he ought to average around 44-45 points of damage/round against AC 18 so I may have overestimated a bit.

Would you mind posting the build, or giving a little more info? That fighter sounds impressive.

-z

 

[nameless]

Give him a rhino hide and boots of speed and he'd really be kicking butt. Partial charge to close for double damage, then a full attack. Besides that, Falchion might be a suboptimal choice of weapon. I'd say this is a pretty good standard build overall, but there are probablt some twinky choices that would improve the damage even more.

 

[Victim]

Give him a rhino hide and boots of speed and he'd really be kicking butt. Partial charge to close for double damage, then a full attack. Besides that, Falchion might be a suboptimal choice of weapon. I'd say this is a pretty good standard build overall, but there are probablt some twinky choices that would improve the damage even more.

The falchion trades 2 points of base damage for extra critical chances. It's great weapon against living foes, or if you have nifty weapon properties that trigger on a crit.

Boots of Speed are unnecessary if the wizard is Hasting him.

Rhino Hide has terrible AC. For pure damage dealing, it's tough to beat. However, in a group, fighters generally have to take damage too.
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If wizards want to blast stuff, then tell them to use Empower Spell. It increases raw damage faster than higher damage caps. A wizard should have a bonus spell at every level from INT and gets another one from Specialization.

So a 10th level Evoker can 2 Empowered Fireballs in a round. Boom. Take 30d6. Since we're assuming a rather poor AC so the fighter can use Power Attack, we can assume a poor reflex save as well. Granted, that's only twice per day, but it can also effect an area. Straight blasting can still work, but it's not particularly efficient.