D&D 3E/3.5 3rd Edition Revisited - Better play with the power of hindsight?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Disguise lets you impersonate a specific individual, and the skill description lists the modifiers other NPCs get to their sense motive check, based on how well they know that person.

If they know the person and would recognize him on the street, it's +4.
If they are personally acquainted, it's +6.
If they are friends, it's +8
If they are close family, it's +10,

For a regular person, that's a Sense Motive roll of 11 to 30 to recognize someone impersonating your father or wife.
A 5th level bard with 16 Charisma could have +13 to that Disguise roll without even trying any optimization shenanigans. That's a more than 50% chance to pull off something that should be impossible with only a modest training. Cast a simple 1st level disguise self and you boost your roll to +23. Even if the person rolls a 20 on sense motive, you still only need an 8 to pull it off.

You could see it as something that sets a feel for the power of characters in 3E. 8 ranks is more than just modest training...
If a Level 5 Bard can disguise himself so that they can convince a husband the bard is his wife, than that tells you how powerful Level 5 really is compared to the real world. And maybe it makes sense it would be that exceptional, because a 3E Level 5 Fighter can fight a pair of Ogres or a single Troll, which seems also extremely unlikely to be doable for a single warrior.

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What I remember from the skill list is that all these skills had the same "value" in character cost, but some were very specific (Read Lips) and something you'd barely used. And other times abilities that you would expect to go hand in hand needed and could be levelled completely independently. You could theoretically have someone that sneaks around and is almost impossible to see but you'd hear him a mile away (or vice versa).
Of course, the granularity of skill systems is always a challenge and this was basically D&Ds first fully-fledged skill system for all classes.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

You could see it as something that sets a feel for the power of characters in 3E. 8 ranks is more than just modest training...
If a Level 5 Bard can disguise himself so that they can convince a husband the bard is his wife, than that tells you how powerful Level 5 really is compared to the real world. And maybe it makes sense it would be that exceptional, because a 3E Level 5 Fighter can fight a pair of Ogres or a single Troll, which seems also extremely unlikely to be doable for a single warrior.

I think this is an important observation. We tend to think of 5th level as low or low-mid level, but characters are already capable of routinely performing superheroic actions.

 

[Yora]

One thing I feel that rarely gets sufficiently considered is that in both 3rd and 5th edition, the roster of monsters very much narrows down past 12th level or so. After that it's really mostly just dragons and the uppermost ranks of fiends.
Bigger spells is really the only more grand content that opens up in higher level play.

 

[Alzrius]

I think this is an important observation. We tend to think of 5th level as low or low-mid level, but characters are already capable of routinely performing superheroic actions.

I'd say that 5th-level characters are pushing the limit for what mortals can accomplish without magic or any other sort of supernatural prowess. After all, while not quite the same as the bard example above, we've seen some incredible disguises being pulled off in the real world.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Of you play 3E casually like late 2E it works OK.

If you play it into the teens, I roll to disbelieve.

 

[ssvegeta555]

One thing I feel that rarely gets sufficiently considered is that in both 3rd and 5th edition, the roster of monsters very much narrows down past 12th level or so. After that it's really mostly just dragons and the uppermost ranks of fiends.
Bigger spells is really the only more grand content that opens up in higher level play.

I've noticed that too. I was bored last year and decided to combine all the major MM that I got from the DMguild into one huge pdf and made bookmarks by hand alphabetically, type, by CR etc, and I did notice after 12th level the amount of monsters tapers off quite a bit. Lots of golems, dragons and outsiders filling in those ranks.

I've been mulling over doing an E12 variant these past few months but banning 6th level spells to curb the power of casters (spell slots of that level still obtainable making it best to fuel metamagic or using lower level spells to fill them). I've always found E6 too low level for my tastes. So, level 12 seems like a nice level to cap off progression right before the unmanageable high level craziness starts lol.

 

[amethal]

And then there is Gather Information. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use that skill. What kind of situation is it meant to be used for exactly?

I think it is a "legacy" skill, since the "old school" approach to adventures is to have a rumour table the PCs can roll on before they head out to the dungeon. I assume the 3rd edition designers thought "I guess we need a skill for that now".

Pathfinder just adds it to the Diplomacy skill (although knowing a common rumour or local tradition is also a DC 15 Knowledge (Local) test).

 

[Voadam]

And then there is Gather Information. I don't think I've ever seen anyone use that skill. What kind of situation is it meant to be used for exactly?

That's one I saw used all the time and that I used all the time.

You get a name, you try and find out more information about them. This person who attacked you works for the Vladaams, who are the Vladaams? Spend some downtime and a few gold to canvass and network and learn the Vladaams are a rich powerful dangerous noble family. Knowing that follow up with more downtime and another check and learn who the big shakers in the family are and things they are into, or the big rumors about the family and their current activities.

 

[Celebrim]

If you play it into the teens, I roll to disbelieve.

Nothing is quite so OP as 1e/2e characters in the teen levels with high attribute scores, generous treasure, and all the optional rules and a bit of Dragon Magazine thrown in. Not only are you scaling out to godlike power like 3e, but unlike 3e it's not explicit in the rules how you challenge such nigh omnipotent characters the way it is in 3e with its explicit monster scaling. If you think that only 3e introduced superpowered characters, then you haven't seen 1e with the Gygaxian "never give players an inch" relaxed even slightly.

 

[Alzrius]

That's one I saw used all the time and that I used all the time.

You get a name, you try and find out more information about them. This person who attacked you works for the Vladaams, who are the Vladaams? Spend some downtime and a few gold to canvass and network and learn the Vladaams are a rich powerful dangerous noble family. Knowing that follow up with more downtime and another check and learn who the big shakers in the family are and things they are into, or the big rumors about the family and their current activities.

One aspect of the skill that people often overlook is that, just by making a Gather Information check, you can arouse suspicion with regard to yourself (presumably, though not necessarily, from whoever it is you're asking about). You can only avoid that if you voluntarily take a -20 penalty to the check.

Of course, it's understandable that most people overlook that, as it's only outlined in the epic use of the skill.