3rd Edition too quick? too powerful?

Theres a big difference between 2e and 3e and its the reason people plan their characters advancement... you actually get something for gaining a level.

You have options past those you made when you wrote the PC such as it was in 2e.

There were no options for what happened when you gained a level in 2e or 1e... but now there is. Why does planning your character bother so many Dms?
 

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On experience and levelling

I ran a 2e campaign from 10/96 to 10/00, when 3e came out. Over that period we probably played 3 sessions per month, on average - so I guess about 100 sessions. The characters rose from 1st level to 9th in that time. Levels 1-4 were fairly rapid, 5-7 quite a bit longer, and 8-9 was just tedious. The last two adventures I ran in that campaign were huge mega-adventures, taking 3-4 months of real time, i.e. 10+ sessions, or 40+ hours of playing. I tried to hand out xp like it was confetti - I gave the party (of five) mission bonuses of 50,000xp or 100,000xp. Conclusion: 2e experience at mid- to high-levels was way too high.

I ran a 3e campaign from 10/00 to 10/02. Characters went from 1st to 9th level in that time, about 60 sessions. If I'd given out standard xp, the characters would've been about 11th level. Not too much of a problem, just slightly faster than I would've liked as DM. Hence, I artificially held characters at lower levels. Seemed to work OK.

I started running another 3e campaign just this year. We've played 6 sessions (say, 24 hours), and characters are on the brink of 3rd level. I have no problem with characters rushing through low levels - as a DM, I find mid-level adventures most fun, so I like to get my characters there quickly, then keep 'em there! Consequently, I have modified the standard experience tables.

Everyone knows that for each additional level, the character needs to earn 1000xp more than he earned for the previous level (i.e. difference between 1st and 2nd level is 1000xp, difference between 2nd and 3rd level is 2000xp, difference between 3rd and 4th level is 3000xp, etc.). To slow progression down at mid- and high-levels, I've proposed that each level from 6th-10th level requires 2000xp more than the previous level, each level from 11th-15th level requires 3000xp more than the previous level, and each level from 16th-20th level requires 4000xp more. Of course, this is a work-in-progress - I have no idea how it will work in practice, as the PCs are only 2nd level.

On treasure and magic: I've always been a stingy DM, and over many years the players have come to accept that. In 3e, I'm a little freer with magic that I used to be, but not much. For example, in the previous campaign, the 9th level cleric of Heironeous had a +1 longsword (no special abilities) and had only just been given a suit of full plate armour by his church as a reward for services rendered prior to the last adventure. The fighter/cleric of St Cuthbert had a +1 heavy mace, bane vs evil outsiders, masterwork half-plate, and a heavy warhorse from the stables of the region's Duke (it had higher Con than standard). The Ftr3/Wiz6 had a +1 mighty (+1) shortbow, +1 mithral chainmail and a pearl of power (1st level) taken from a drow she had killed. The Mnk9 had some bracers which imbued him with magic fang once per day (for 10 rounds only) and some slippers of the tiger's leap (double unarmed damage in a charge). These are 9th level characters with what some would regard as pretty crappy magic for their level. But the point is that it worked well in my campaign. The good stuff the characters get (with the exception of scrolls and potions they might make themselves) are those they take off the bad guys - which frequently are either useless to them or are downright dangerous to keep - or are those they are given by grateful people in power.

I haven't yet permitted PCs to take magic item creation feats other than Brew Potion, Craft Wand and Scribe Scroll. In the immediate past campaign, I required Spellcraft checks to manufacture even those one-shot magic items (DC = 15 + spell level), and if the Spellcraft check failed, the cost, time and experience needed to create the item was wasted. In this campaign, I won't have PCs wasting their money and xp, I'll just say "given your other tasks, in the time you have, you can only scribe 3 scrolls", for example.

At the end of the day, experience, treasure and magic items are all within the control of the DM. The DM needs to set some ground rules to ensure that players don't feel cheated out of what they think is rightfully theirs; fortunately, I've been playing with the same crew so long that they're resigned to my stinginess...

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 

Limper said:
Why does planning your character bother so many Dms?

3e puts most character development squarely in the player's hands (and out of the DM's). I don't know if it's 'planning' that bothers DM's as much as loss of control.

Just an observation from a former grognard.

Personally, I think it's a HUGE improvement---but I prefer Referees to Storytellers ;)
 

Re: Re: Re: 3rd Edition too quick? too powerful?

Larcen said:


I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I just wanted to comment on this. I would think that if you set up a situation where the PCs are so rare and unusual in terms of the ability to use magic, then you have just made them VERY powerful when compared to the rest of the world. Even a first level wizard in a world with little to no magic would be held in awe by the commoners. Of course, I suppose you could always have them organize a witch hunt. ;)

Funny you should mention that. My Lawful-Good God's church has a very Inquisition-esque mindset when it comes to arcane magic. :D So all of my players know to be veeeeery careful when it comes to open displays of arcane power (even so, I have a sor/ftr and sorcerer in the party.)

And as far as held in awe: since I haven't restricted divine magic, the commonfolk are used to high-level spells. Just not high-level wizards, or lots of magic items. And in any case, by the time the PCs are high-level spellcasters, it's appropriate that the commoners hold them in awe. ;)
 

I have a simple solution for the problem of PC casters being too powerful in low magic worlds. Simply differentiate the XP they need to obtain the next level - wizards, clerics and may be required to earn say 100% more XP, while bards, etc. only 50% more XP...
 

...my friend Bendris...

Brain's twitching... Someone said my name. Ah, yes! Must have been Nightfall...

Interesting topic here. Let's see...

Well, I'm a firm believer in the long-distance campaign. Mine's on its 6th (7th?) year, having just made the full jump into the new rules set (for the record, I don't consider it D&D, but is on the web under the OGL, but not the d20STL).

At any rate, I've found that cutting the Experience Points in half and keeping game focus on RP, story-line, travel and plot development, goes a long way to extend the timespan between leveling up. While most "tedius" activities aren't RP'd, the time-span of these events is considered (particularly training, political and social responsibilities due to temples, orders, guilds, and the like, etc.), so in addition to play-time being extended, the PCs age, often reaching close to middle-age by the time they reach 20th Level.
 

I too am for low magic, slow advancement. I have used a lot of the quick fixes like reducing treasure and the amount of experience points. That is the easy part and I wouldn't say that is so much the problem.

One difficulty is it makes the already hard job of finding good modules even harder. Besides the general lack of quality in a lot of third edition modules, any multiple series modules or mega-modules now require a high degree of customization for any DM that uses slow advancement. Take the Witchfire Trilogy for instance... from 1st to 7th in the course of three modules. The reason why I buy modules is to save time. Given my time is limited I'd prefer not having to do non-value add customization... when I could spend it thinking up cool aspects to the overall campaign.

Another problem with the rapid advancement of 3rd edition is it's a lot harder to keep on top of all the changes going on with everyone's character for campaign planning purposes. For a player having all the options is cool... when you combine this with constantly changing levels its an administrative nightmare for a DM when you are trying to maintain game balance.

From an overall perspective just because most campaigns die out in 9 months, hard wiring this into the game system is a mistake. While there are many aspects I do like about third edition, I've noticed that most gaming groups are a lot less stable than they used to be during 1st or 2nd edition. I feel that rapid advancement is just one flaws in 3rd edition that contributes to this. At a certain pont (level 20+ maybe) most games run out of material or devolve into world domination power gaming.
 

Limper said:
Theres a big difference between 2e and 3e and its the reason people plan their characters advancement... you actually get something for gaining a level.

You have options past those you made when you wrote the PC such as it was in 2e.

There were no options for what happened when you gained a level in 2e or 1e... but now there is. Why does planning your character bother so many Dms?

Many DMs seem to want to plan their players' characters for them. It's no doubt a hangover from computer games like Baldur's Gate.

I swear, things were never like this in the good ol' days when RPGs were young and men were REAL men. Why, I remember having to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill, to get to my game. What's more, it was uphill BOTH ways. And none of this namby-pamby electronic stuff like PDAs or laptops either. We made do with pens and paper (that's why it's called "pen and paper" gaming). And we had exactly one set of dice between us. People these days don't know how to share. Actually, we had exactly one die between us. It was a d6, I believe. The Diablo generation has it too easy, what with having grown up after the discovery of the full set of platonic solids. Back in my days, we had to simulate every type of die with a d6, and we LIKED it. Nothing builds character like having to roll 20d8 damage from a flamestrike, with one greasy six-sided die. Let me tell you, it really encouraged gamer hygiene when you knew that the residue from last week's pizza could cause your saving throw to fizzle. And we didn't have any of this politically correct nonsense like "verisimilitude" or "characterisation". Back in the day, four syllables per word was good enough for us. Okay, Gary used more than that in the first line of the 1E PHB alone, but he's Gary. He's ALLOWED. More than I can say for this so-called "next generation" of game designers. Pansy excuses for the real thing, that's what they are. I bet half of them have never even had a TPK, let alone heard of the gazebo story. Why, I bet some of them are even closet Vampire players. Bah. Bah, I say. The only good vampire is a staked vampire, and the only way to stake a vampire is through the heart when it's at zero hit points. Where was I? Oh yea, vampires. What was Mark Rein:mad:Hagen thinking when he wrote GURPS Vampires anyway? Why wasn't he off thinking about the physics of laminate armour and long-rod penetrators like all good GURPS gearheads? It's a conspiracy, I say. A conspiracy run by the Axis of Evil: Hasbro, Microsoft and Starbucks. Is it a coincidence that all of these are based in Seattle? I THINK NOT. I say we nuke Mt Rainier. It's the only way to be sure.


Hong "gasp, wheeze" Ooi
 

Bendris, well you know my position on low magic stuff (low magic item count is fine and all...) but for my bet, I'll put up Aedon with the best of them. IMHO of course. ;) But glad you joined up.
 

Fenes 2 said:
PCs are only underequipped in a low-treasure world if you use lots of monsters. Since I use lots of classed humans and humanoids, I don't have a problem with underequipped PCs even though I am stingy with magic items.

The monster CRs are off in a low-treasure world: a hill giant is a lot tougher than a 7th level Fighter without magic items. Obvious solution is to tweak monster CRs - maybe that hill giant is as tough as a 10th level no-magic fighter, so for your world he's CR10.
If you _never_ use monsters obviously the problem doesn't arise.

Eg: My own world is somewhat more magic-poor than standard, I've eg raised Ettin & Troll CRs from 5 to 6. The typical 6th level PC in my own world has some magic but nothing like the DMG standard wealth-by-level.
 

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