3rd Edition too quick? too powerful?

[S'mon]

Col. Hardisson came up with the best rule I've ever heard for assuring a low-magic world even when players want to be clerics and wizards. He uses it for the Middle Earth conversion:

For every level of spellcaster, the character must multiclass into a non-spellcaster level.

Thus, you'll never have a lot of powerful magic items or high level spells; even if the fighter is 18th level, the wizard is at best a 9th lvl wizard / 9th lvl whatever. I'd never use it for my game, but it's a heck of a lot simpler than a lot of wacky house rules on item creation, and it really strikes me as elegant.

You definitely have to adjust threats accordingly, though. A group in such a campaign would be significantly weaker than a standard group.

It is an excellent (and truly inspired) mechanic, which I plan to use should I ever run a Nehwon/Lankhmar, Middle Earth or (possibly) Conan game. It probably wouldn't work for my core gameworld since there are too many 18th-level Wizards and such running around already, but it fits most literary fantasy worlds much better than the core game mechanics.

 

[Fenes 2]

The monster CRs are off in a low-treasure world: a hill giant is a lot tougher than a 7th level Fighter without magic items. Obvious solution is to tweak monster CRs - maybe that hill giant is as tough as a 10th level no-magic fighter, so for your world he's CR10.
If you _never_ use monsters obviously the problem doesn't arise.

Any monster (and NPC) I use I always tailor to my PCs. I never just take a CR without checking the stats, abilities and powers of an opponent relatively to my party.

I don't care at all about CR/XP either - even back when I used XP I eyeballed the amount based on how fast I wanted the PCs to level, not on how hard an encounter was.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I think the current 3e model for advancement is very good for most players. I play probably more than most at 2 to 4 times a week for roughly 6 to 8 hours per session, yet it still took our group 5 months or so to reach 14th level doing the RttToEE module.

If we had been playing once a week or once a month, it would have taken us a year or more to reach lvl 14. We would probably never be able to use the Epic Level Handbook or use any high level spells if advancement was as slow as in previous editions.

I for one am glad they accelerated advancement. I look forward to playing the high level game. The high level game seems far more interesting to me than the low level game.

I wonder if most complaints about the fast advancement don't occur because of the difficulty of running a challenging, interesting and involved high level game where single die rolls often decide the outcome of events. This is probably the biggest weakness of the D&D advancement system. It boils down to one thing: the lack of a viable non-combat experience system.

My one hope is that the game designers come up with a viable method for awarding experience for non-combat encounters. I believe this would make it easier to run a challenging, interesting and involved high level game that goes beyond simply rolling the dice.

At high levels, the game takes on a whole different meaning as extremely powerful individuals vie for power or fight against forces of evil that they should not always be able to defeat with pure force. Yet, D&D strongly encourages combat as the ultimate form of encounter resolution because of the experience system.

If 3rd edition D&D would include an official and viable system of distributing non-combat experience for encounters that require a roleplaying resolution, I would be very happy. That would greatly alleviate the constant need to resort to combat and looting for a character to advance, which from my perspective, is what really hurts the high level game and makes it seem less interesting.

 

[Fenes 2]

IMHO, just assigning CRs to challenging situations (Like getting the ambassador from X to sign a treaty) and distributing EXP accordingly should be sufficient, if you really need an official way to deal out exp for non combat encounters.

 

[S'mon]

Any monster (and NPC) I use I always tailor to my PCs. I never just take a CR without checking the stats, abilities and powers of an opponent relatively to my party.

I don't care at all about CR/XP either - even back when I used XP I eyeballed the amount based on how fast I wanted the PCs to level, not on how hard an encounter was.

I tend to take an 'environment' approach to gameworld design - the world exists independently of the PCs and isn't necessarily tailored to their abilities. I like the feel of 'objective reality' this brings. Naturally it can cause problems with eg low-level PCs having a lot of trouble surviving, or high-level ones dominating their environment, but to me that's just the way the world is...

 

[Darklone]

I do like 3rd edition. I don't use the XP system. I don't use treasure tables. I don't use PrClasses (except for some NPCs).

• I do use very powerful magic items (playing in a group for 5 years where the PCs at lvl9 had one +1 longsword and two +1 daggers for the whole group does that to you), usually nearly minor artefacts that gradually grow with the players. But few of them.
• I love to throw hordes of low level monsters at my players.
• I have house rules for character creation (you have to start as multiclassed NPC class/character class).
• I give attribute raises every even level and feats every odd level and let the players start with 5 feats for humans and halfelves and 4 for the other races (you cannot pick feats that have other feats as prerequisites).
• My players seldom take item creation feats due to money and time restraints (the wizard is happy if he can put some spells in his book and has to haggle with two or three others from the group for the money).
• I give easily 1000XPs for roleplaying and no Xps for a huge battle. Survival and getting ahead in the story is reward enough sometimes.
• My players plan their characters only a few levels ahead usually. Changing circumstances and archenemies keep them at their toes.

So yes, I see all your points. And yes, I houseruled them away

 

[Fenes 2]

I tend to take an 'environment' approach to gameworld design - the world exists independently of the PCs and isn't necessarily tailored to their abilities. I like the feel of 'objective reality' this brings. Naturally it can cause problems with eg low-level PCs having a lot of trouble surviving, or high-level ones dominating their environment, but to me that's just the way the world is...

I don't mean that I only use NPCs that are tailored to be an equal challenge to the PCs, I meant that I do not rely on the CRs when choosing my NCPs and monsters. If I want an overpowering monster or a pushover I look at the stats etc., not at the CR in the MM.

 

[S'mon]

I don't mean that I only use NPCs that are tailored to be an equal challenge to the PCs, I meant that I do not rely on the CRs when choosing my NCPs and monsters. If I want an overpowering monster or a pushover I look at the stats etc., not at the CR in the MM.

I know what you mean. What I mean is that I don't usually choose an overwhelming monster or a pushover, the monsters & NPCs are usually created well in advance and placed in their environment, if the PCs are too weak to fight them when they meet them, that's their tough luck (as when the level 6-8 PCs blundered into the CR 20 half-demon overlord...). Likewise some fights turn out easy.

 

[officeronin]

I swear, things were never like this in the good ol' days when RPGs were young and men were REAL men. Why, I remember having to walk ten miles through the snow, uphill, to get to my game. What's more, it was uphill BOTH ways. And none of this namby-pamby electronic stuff like PDAs or laptops either. We made do with pens and paper (that's why it's called "pen and paper" gaming).

Young Whipper-snapper! When I started playing, the AD+D Player's Handbook had several references, "See the Dungeon Master's Guide", which was not yet printed... Pen and Paper?!!! What ever happened to the wet clay tablets we'd have to lug to the DM's cave?

OfficeRonin