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4 years of 5E on Amazon: same old same old
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<blockquote data-quote="GreyLord" data-source="post: 7493243" data-attributes="member: 4348"><p>A lot of it is guess work. I have hard numbers for what you quote above (23 to 27 million). </p><p></p><p>That said, GUESSTIMATES put it far above that. </p><p></p><p>We know from hard figures put out that it was around 90 million in 1990 and 91, and around 100 million for a short while after that (and then boom, we don't talk about how bad that got after it all came crashing down...quick too). </p><p></p><p>Going backwards, I'm pretty certain with the market penetration and how far it had reached, there were more sales and more players in the early 80s during the fad of AD&D. In 1982-1985 it was crazy. </p><p></p><p>Estimates of 25 million AD&D gamers during the time period (well AD&D and D&D). We know it was enough for Gary to go play with the big guys in Hollywood and play and pay at their level (NOT CHEAP) for a little bit. His expenses weren't even the ones that were hurting the company. </p><p></p><p>I'd guess that TSR in the early 80s would have been making 50 to 60 million at least (120 to 180 million in our dollars) and perhaps upwards of 100 to 150 million. HOWEVER, a LOT of that was in soft money that was being criminally (but we can't prove it) manipulated by some pretty intense individuals who were spending it like play monopoly money (and almost caused TSR to crash due to mismanagement, long before it went bankrupt ten years later). In otherwords, it's money that never found it's way to the books or filings. It makes it untrackable today (unless we suddenly unhouse a treasure trove of documents for the IRS to finally prosecute) and why it gets so hard and murky to know just how much TSR under Gygax and the Blooms made, how many copies were actually sold of the original PHB and ensuing printings, and how it was actually doing.</p><p></p><p>If it followed standard procedures of the 2e PHB and we had 100K printruns, that would mean we have at least 1.7 million copies of the 1e PHB that were printed (but not necessarily sold). </p><p></p><p>Modules on the otherhand had FAR SMALLER printings (some being less than 1000). Some modules sold a gazillion copies (well, to exceed that of 100K copies) during the fad. 20K wasn't odd in the early 80s. Later on, during the 90s you may be lucky to sell 10K copies. This is why I think it is almost definite that 1e outsold 2e in every way, shape, and fashion. The problem, we don't have the hard numbers to back it up except extrapolation and guesswork. </p><p></p><p>Without the hard records though, it makes it hard to make many types of claims that people seem to want to make in this thread on both sides of the equation.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GreyLord, post: 7493243, member: 4348"] A lot of it is guess work. I have hard numbers for what you quote above (23 to 27 million). That said, GUESSTIMATES put it far above that. We know from hard figures put out that it was around 90 million in 1990 and 91, and around 100 million for a short while after that (and then boom, we don't talk about how bad that got after it all came crashing down...quick too). Going backwards, I'm pretty certain with the market penetration and how far it had reached, there were more sales and more players in the early 80s during the fad of AD&D. In 1982-1985 it was crazy. Estimates of 25 million AD&D gamers during the time period (well AD&D and D&D). We know it was enough for Gary to go play with the big guys in Hollywood and play and pay at their level (NOT CHEAP) for a little bit. His expenses weren't even the ones that were hurting the company. I'd guess that TSR in the early 80s would have been making 50 to 60 million at least (120 to 180 million in our dollars) and perhaps upwards of 100 to 150 million. HOWEVER, a LOT of that was in soft money that was being criminally (but we can't prove it) manipulated by some pretty intense individuals who were spending it like play monopoly money (and almost caused TSR to crash due to mismanagement, long before it went bankrupt ten years later). In otherwords, it's money that never found it's way to the books or filings. It makes it untrackable today (unless we suddenly unhouse a treasure trove of documents for the IRS to finally prosecute) and why it gets so hard and murky to know just how much TSR under Gygax and the Blooms made, how many copies were actually sold of the original PHB and ensuing printings, and how it was actually doing. If it followed standard procedures of the 2e PHB and we had 100K printruns, that would mean we have at least 1.7 million copies of the 1e PHB that were printed (but not necessarily sold). Modules on the otherhand had FAR SMALLER printings (some being less than 1000). Some modules sold a gazillion copies (well, to exceed that of 100K copies) during the fad. 20K wasn't odd in the early 80s. Later on, during the 90s you may be lucky to sell 10K copies. This is why I think it is almost definite that 1e outsold 2e in every way, shape, and fashion. The problem, we don't have the hard numbers to back it up except extrapolation and guesswork. Without the hard records though, it makes it hard to make many types of claims that people seem to want to make in this thread on both sides of the equation. [/QUOTE]
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