D&D 4E 4e and PC/NPC balance

[MrMyth]

I also think it's fair to say that the power itself is too powerful for anybody to have, monsters included. Clearly, the power, working as-intended, diminished the fighter's fun. And I'd favor folks havin' fun over rules adherence any day. If someone ain't having fun, it's not working like it should, even if it's working as intended. It'd be acceptable to nerf them by making it recharge or 1/encounter, or whatever, I think.

Keep in mind, this guy is Elite. So ignore the minor action part - are you ok with an at-will that dominates? Succubi have it, and it isn't the end of the world. In many ways, having it on an elite makes it easier to handle, since shutting him down in various ways (dazing) can make it harder to use - or cornering him, where using it will provoke.

Yes, it diminished the fighter's fun. I favor the argument, though, that the solution would have been to switch targets every round. I don't see how the fighter could have been the only one in range every round - after the first round of him being dominated, send him to go chase down his companions, and the Concordian should be able to get in range.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I would make a houserule, that saves can be granted for powers that last until end of turn. This would bring those powers in line and make those abilities more useful.

Honestly, that would do almost nothing for this particular ability. On the monster's turn, it dominates the Fighter. On the Fighter's turn the monster makes him attack, then the Fighter saves and ends his turn (saving is done at the end of your turn, after all actions are completed). On the monster's turn, he just dominates the Fighter again. It's no different than a "till the end of the monster's next turn" dominate, and in some ways could even be worse if combined with a penalty to saves. The Concordian had another at-will minor action power that it could use when the dominated target failed it's save, which would actually make them even more dangerous.

Yes, it diminished the fighter's fun. I favor the argument, though, that the solution would have been to switch targets every round. I don't see how the fighter could have been the only one in range every round - after the first round of him being dominated, send him to go chase down his companions, and the Concordian should be able to get in range.

Some of this issue is really a failure on the part of the party. The monster has two melee attacks for his standard actions, which means he should be kinda wading into the fray. If they're letting him stay away from the action and just repeatedly dominating the Fighter, then they weren't doing their jobs at all. Getting someone, anyone, next to the Concordian would've caused him to take OA's if he wanted to keep the Fighter dominated.

Secondly, it's not an automatic hit, it's a +10 vs Will attack. Granted, the Will on most Fighters is kinda bad, but where was the party leader? Wasn't there anyone that could've added a bonus to his defense, or lowered the attack bonus of the enemy?

So, while yes, this power is rather strong...really, it just exposed a lack of teamwork and tactics on the part of the PC's. You can't just hang an ally out to dry like that, if for no other reason than the fact that you're basically telling your friend at the table "Yeah, just take a seat for the next 20 minutes while we hog all the fun".

 

[LostSoul]

I think it would be an interesting development in the game if the PCs wanted to learn that power and went on some adventures to get it. It would be interesting - a unique element of the campaign that's all yours.

If a PC did have that power, would it be unbalanced? Yes - it would be used every single round! It's a no-brainer. The fact that it makes the PCs more powerful isn't really an issue - they get more XP than they would normally (because they can take on more difficult challenges), but I don't see the problem with that.

 

[Garthanos]

There is a certain character in the the Sword of Truth Series ... she is called a confessor ... her power is a daily (for most of her kind) ... she has it closer to once every encounter but after she uses it she is fairly disabled ie it soaks her actions to use it... but the target is doing his/her best based on his own thinking about what she wants. Kind of similar.... ofcourse in the story its quite permanent and the subject is more than a bit minion like.

 

[Mercule]

I think it would be an interesting development in the game if the PCs wanted to learn that power and went on some adventures to get it. It would be interesting - a unique element of the campaign that's all yours.

If a PC did have that power, would it be unbalanced? Yes - it would be used every single round! It's a no-brainer. The fact that it makes the PCs more powerful isn't really an issue - they get more XP than they would normally (because they can take on more difficult challenges), but I don't see the problem with that.

I made a final ruling for my campaign, on the matter. No PC race gets any non-PC-able powers. Two caveats.

1) Encounter monster powers are going to be daily PC powers and recharge monster powers are going to be encounters. Why? These are a case of "same result, different build". Without typing a whole bunch, it basically boils down to that's what I think are equivalent.

2) If it isn't actually in a player book, it's a rare power and will probably have a special cost (read: story event) of some sort. This may be a prohibitive cost and it may, effectively, require the PC to become an NPC. But, the player is free to pursue it and an answer will exist.

In practice, I don't expect it to ever be a real issue. But, the explanation should ease some player mental blocks.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I would have tried my hardest to make the Aurum Concordant NPC escape. I bet the players would have hated him enough to elevate him to Number One Enemy status. Being truly and completely hated is the sort of thing that makes for awesome villains.

In fact, if they did manage to kill this guy, perhaps you should have him raised from the dead.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think that's a bit much, frankly. An at-will, minor action dominate is just a bit overwhelming for most fights. I'd switch it to a Recharge power of some sort. With that said, this is basically the Aurum Concordian's only trick. They're an Elite who can basically do nothing else.

This. They're not supposed to be easy to take down.

That said, it's not automatic, still requires an attack roll, and the players have defensive powers available for a reason.

Monsters SHOULD have badass abilities at times, because how else are they going to make the players feel badass for avoiding them?

I'd say yes to both.

-O

Right. Monsters are challenges to defeat, not another set of players. They don't hit as hard, but they're more adept at challenging players. Why would they be the same as players, they're not even there to do the same things!

 

[KarinsDad]

There is more than one way to make Dominate "more fun".

Some PC forms of dominate have a restriction that the NPC will not do something obviously harmful such as jumping off a cliff.

NPC forms of dominate rarely (if at all) have that.

So, the NPC can have the dominated PC "run past all or most of the NPCs". Those NPCs get an Opportunity Attack against that PC at +2 for Combat Advantage. Typically, this will average more damage against the PC than most At Wills will against another PC or two.

Not only that, but the PC can then be somewhat far away from the dominating NPC (with a Run action being +2 to speed). This means that other PCs might be closer which makes them prime targets for Dominate in future rounds. This enables the DM to "spread the wealth around" and dominate different PCs on different rounds more easily.

A DM could actually keep "pushing the PCs away", one PC at a time while his NPCs advance. This can create all kinds of havoc as the front line disintegrates and the back line might eventually become the front line.


A DM could have a PC run past a bunch of NPCs and into a lava pool or over a cliff or into a trap. Dominate is not forced movement. There is no save for going into a hazardous square. Opps.


Another option is to have the PC charge another PC while next to NPCs. The NPCs get Opportunity Attacks (at +2 due to the errata on Dominate), the second PC gets attacked as well (at +1 for Charge).


But if you just use Dominate to use the PC at will powers and typically against the same PC, meh. Boring, not only for the player getting dominated over and over again, but also for the rest of the group.

 

[Squire James]

I normally play with a house rule that ending a Dominate effect (either by making a save, or its duration simply running out) makes that target immune to domination until the end of the target's next turn. Most monsters are aware of this, so they target different creatures on follow-up uses of that power (perhaps "bouncing" between 2 targets if the others "look mentally tough"). That helps avoid that "pick on one guy" problem that sometimes crops up.

My opinion of the player whining about monsters with powers PCs can never have is not terribly high. I hope the player has some other redeeming feature that would prompt me to be patient with him. While pretending the world is 100% fair is a decent single-person fantasy, it does not make for a good multi-player game (or real-world philosophy for that matter, but I should shut up before somebody accuses me of being some random sort of evil).

 

[Hellcow]

As I see it, there's a number of different issues here. I don't think these are things everyone will ever agree upon, but I thought I'd drop my two crowns in.

The first issue is the Concordian himself. He's a dwarf who possesses a power that is unavailable to PCs. He's not a mind flayer, or a rakshasa, or something bizarre. How is it that he can have this cool power that a dwarf PC can't?

The second is the power itself... both the Concordian's specific ability, and dominate itself. Should ANYTHING be able to have this level of power?

On the first point: If you're going to allow dominate in the game, I have no problem with the Concordian having it while a PC - even a psion - doesn't have access to it. A few things to consider:

1. The Aurum is a secret society dedicated to dominating others. Eberron is a setting in which magic has been adapted to accomplish the needs of society. Ilithids, vampires, Quori - all of these are creatures that dominate others through innate supernatural power. The Concordian represents the industrial use of magic: a society dedicated to coercion that has developed a powerful tool for accomplishing that goal.

2. Great - they've developed this tool. So why can't YOUR dwarf do it? Others have already suggested a lot of good reasons. First, let's look at all the things your PCs can do that he can't. Your psion can't do it - but what about the huge mass of things your psion can do that he can't? At seventh level, the Concordian only has four powers, compared to the nine powers your PC has. He's a dwarf, so he could live a long time. The way I look at it, he's probably spent seventy years perfecting this skill... honing it with such intensity that he's given up the versatility that your psion has. So could he teach this skill to your psion? Sure! it's just going to take you seventy years to get the hang of it, and in the process you're going to lose your dailies, an encounter, and two utilities because of the intent focus you'll be putting into it.

That's just one approach. A few others:
* The power is similar to the Slayer's Puppet's power of the Dreaming Dark assassin - ranged instead of melee, but the Quori power is save ends instead of one round duration. If you don't like the idea of a dwarf having it... then say that he's not simply a dwarf, he's a Quori mind seed. You know there's some in the Aurum. Or perhaps he's a fiend of the Lords of Dust in dwarf form.

* If you want him to stay a dwarf, perhaps the Concordian only has the power because of a pact he made with an Overlord of the First Age. You can have it too, if you're willing to become an instrument of a demon lord, just waiting for the day when he takes over your body (at which point, you're an NPC... which is one reason only NPCs have the power!)

* Eberron's never had a problem with the idea that certain magic can only be performed by certain bloodlines... IE, dragonmarks. Nowhere in this piece does it say that all members of the Platinum Concord have this power. So, this could very well be a form of blood magic perfected by a particular dwarven family. Your character could learn the power too... if you're a member of that same bloodline. Otherwise, you might be able to learn it... but it would take you a few centuries to develop a version that works for your bloodline, same as it took them to develop it.

* It's all about perspective on the world. D&D generally works on the assumption that PCs, if not heroes, are at least noble on SOME level. It could be that mastering this spell requires an utterly sociopathic mindset that lets you see beings around you as nothing more than tools - that you have to be completely lacking in empathy in order to enforce your will over another. This won't work if your PCs truly are this sort of person - but I have to say, if they are, yecch.

But in general... Eberron's always taken the approach that PCs and NPCs work in different ways. The Eldritch Machine is an example of saying "do whatever it is that makes the story work the way you want it to." The idea that an evil mastermind has some evil spell or weapon that his heroic opponent can't use or develop on his own - despite being just as intelligent as the villain - is a well-established pulp trope.

I didn't design the Concordian, but I'm guessing the logic of the designer was something like this: An elite monster counts as two monsters. The Concordian accomplishes this by BEING two monsters - one of whom is one of the PCs. He can't ever control more than one and has to continually work to maintain control. The logic is flawed because the PCs lose an asset in the process, but the Concordian has to actually make the attack and hit with it. The power itself is Ranged 5, which first means that he's screwed if the party stays out of range, and additionally that he draws melee attacks of opportunity when he uses it. In addition, while it's a minor action, I've seen lots of groups that can keep a bad guy dazed for a good long time. It's a scary, powerful ability - but by comparison, the Dreaming Dark Assassin or Belashyrra could end up dominating an entire party.

As for dominate itself... I really, really hate excessive use of dominate. I hate it when one PC ends up having to sit on the sidelines. However, I feel that there is a place for it, just as you had dominate, suggestion, and any number of other mind-influencing effects in third edition. If I were to use it, I'd do the following things.

* Severely limit the number of enemies with dominate. I was in a campaign where we were getting dominated literally every other adventure, and it sucked hard. There was no flavor to it - just "Again with the dominate." If the Concordian is The Enemy With Dominate, and we only see him every four adventures or so, that's fine with me - and I'm going to really hate that guy.

* Play up the ability when dealing with the character, preferably in noncombat situations. So, the first time we meet the Concordian, he's actually hiring us to do a job (though he's going to double-cross us later). Let's see him humiliate the barmaid or cause another employ who failed him to cut his own throat. Emphasize that this is a scary and extremely remarkable power that he possesses, that it is the REASON he has become this amazingly wealthy and influential person. He's not just dominating you; domination is his defining characteristic, something he has honed and perfected, not just a trick any wizard could learn. Look at the Purple Man in Marvel Comics, how he uses the power casually and cruelly as well as when fighting superheroes. Personally, I'd be inclined to say that on normal NPCs the power last even longer (though still only one person at a time) - the fact that it only lasts a round on a PC reflects their strength of character and how difficult it is to maintain control.

* If your PCs are decent roleplayers, let them keep complete control of their characters when dominated. Make it a roleplaying challenge. Don't say "Joe uses Tide of Iron on Bob." Say "Joe, the Concordian is like a father figure to you. He's saved your life. He's the only one who can save your sister from (fill in plot hook). All of the other PCs have betrayed you. Now Bob is going to kill the Concordian. What do you do?" Obviously they are still limited by the conditions of dominate, so they can't burn dailies and such - but let THEM play it. Let the fighter say "Not so easy without me to hide behind, huh, shrimp?" to the wizard. Don't be mindless zombies - let out repressed frustrations. So then, when the fight is over, you have to deal with the things you've all revealed.

Dominate still sucks... I guess I'm just saying that in small doses you may be able to find ways to make it suck less, especially if you really play up the flavor of the character and just how remarkable and scary the power is.