4e Annoyances for those who like 4e

[FireLance]

It seems like it'd be harder to do that in 4E. Not sure why.

Not really - some have suggested that disease tracks will be a good way to model this, including the need to use magic (rituals) to remove the condition quickly.

 

[LostSoul]

Not really - some have suggested that disease tracks will be a good way to model this, including the need to use magic (rituals) to remove the condition quickly.

Yeah, there are a lot of sub-systems that could work. I have this feeling that it would be hard to keep track of the effect of each sword blow in combat, though - it's already pretty complex and takes a while to run through.

Describing each attack in detail would take a while. Though if you did that it might remove the power blindness that I complain about from time to time.

I'd like to try running D&D that way - a lot of description for each action, adjudicating things like broken bones on the fly - but that's not part of the social contract in my current group.

 

[FireLance]

Yeah, there are a lot of sub-systems that could work. I have this feeling that it would be hard to keep track of the effect of each sword blow in combat, though - it's already pretty complex and takes a while to run through.

Describing each attack in detail would take a while. Though if you did that it might remove the power blindness that I complain about from time to time.

I'd like to try running D&D that way - a lot of description for each action, adjudicating things like broken bones on the fly - but that's not part of the social contract in my current group.

What might work is for these long-term conditions to come into play only rarely - when a character drops below 0 hit points for example. This could then be described as the character sustaining a serious wound that martial "healing" and even "normal" magical healing can only overcome temporarily.

 

[cmrscorpio]

I can force myself to buy into that up to a point, but when your character is literally dying, that totally breaks suspension of disbelief for me. At that point you really need some supernatural healing for it to be in the realm of believeability.

Here we get into yet another place where it all depends on the way you choose to narrate. Since 4e did away with nonlethal damage, the only time you fall unconscious is when your character is "dying". Once your character's hit points drop below 0, does that always mean that your character is literally dying? If your character recovers and gets back up, then he wasn't *really* dying, he was merely walloped pretty good and knocked unconscious for a bit. For me, it isn't a matter of suspension of disbelief when the warlord brings someone back from the brink of death.

For an example of this, look at the Fellowship of the Ring when the fellowship is fighting the cave troll. Frodo gets speared and, in D&D 4e terms, drops below 0 hp. He is unconscious and appears to be dying to everyone else. Sam (who is at least a multiclassed warlord because of how he is constantly inspiring Frodo in the later films) comes over and gives him the ability to spend a healing surge. Suddenly, what was believed to be a mortal wound was nothing more than a bad bruise, and a few minutes later Frodo is none the worse for wear.

 

[Wormwood]

Monsters with lower AC than their equippment + level (+stats) would give to players.

Why not just give monsters no armor then?

Because sometimes, the War-troll with iron plates nailed to his flesh or the Anti-paladin in his black enameled armor are really fun to spring on your players?

Just keep the encounter challenging to the players---then go wild with the set dressing. Works every time I've tried it.

 

[Dausuul]

Here we get into yet another place where it all depends on the way you choose to narrate. Since 4e did away with nonlethal damage, the only time you fall unconscious is when your character is "dying". Once your character's hit points drop below 0, does that always mean that your character is literally dying? If your character recovers and gets back up, then he wasn't *really* dying, he was merely walloped pretty good and knocked unconscious for a bit. For me, it isn't a matter of suspension of disbelief when the warlord brings someone back from the brink of death.

But the warlord decides whether the guy was really dying or not. If the warlord yells at him to get up, then he wasn't really dying. If the warlord doesn't yell at him, then he was really dying and dies. And the warlord is acting as if he knows this. That's where the suspension-of-disbelief issue comes in.

A lot of us are very uncomfortable with a system that requires players to make tactical choices that their characters have no in-game basis for making. Going by your explanation, the warlord has no idea in-game that he can affect his fallen friend's survival chances by yelling at him. But he's making decisions as if he did know that. Instead of using his minor action for something else, he uses it for Inspiring Word. If he's more than 25 feet away, he moves to get closer so he's within range, possibly even provoking opportunity attacks.

Why is he doing those things? Out of game, he's doing them because his player knows the fighter is on his third death save. But in-game, his player has to make up some random explanation. If I'm that player, the act of making up that random explanation smashes my suspension of disbelief into little bits; it's a forceful reminder that my character is just a game construct. I'm not trying to get into my character's head and make the decisions he would make. I'm making the decisions I would make and then justifying them after the fact.

This is why I prefer my "will to live" explanation. It's not perfect, but it doesn't require this kind of separation of player and character motivations.

(I would really like a system that imposes long-term penalties for going below zero hit points. That would both address my suspension-of-disbelief problems, and negate the problem of players holding their healing in reserve until somebody hits zero, which is something I see a lot of.)

 

[jbear]

Ok, arrived to late I see, the discussion has kinda gotten a bit specific now at page 7... but just to add my 2 cents:

My biggest gripe with 4e is that I always have to DM, and never get to play. I'm fairly sure that this is not an edition specific problem.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This problem is usually only apparent on artillery mobs. Those do not need armor, no, in fact not having armor on them seems like the obvious, because their dex is high and usually want to stay unencumbered.

And also i think AC should always be the lower of reflex or AC. And no attacks vs AC should deliver status effects other than injection poison maybe.

And if the troll should be nailed with iron, this particular troll should have higher AC than othe trolls, maybe be elite and scary to make it not just a troll which is nailed with iron but otherwise standard...
And i definitively don´t want plate mail in the equippment list when it is not something that remotely resembles platemail...

Actually on higher level monsters i can accept this somehow. (Because lelvel are abstract) It bothers me on lvl 1 kobold slinger when they were hide armor, have a dex of 16 and AC is 12... which IMHO is annoying...

@ HP and HS: You just are not wounded if you don´t die... never have been in D&D. If you were, you would have a harder time evading and attacking and in a death spiral. Also you bleed out.

Ongoing damage is a light cut which hurts a lot and maybe bleeds. A dazing wound is a dizzying blow which makes you catch for breath. And unconscious is excactly this: beeing knocked unconscious. And if you fail death saving throws, you just die because of inner bleedings. IYou are just out of the screen when lying on the ground. And the chances are you are more seriously wounded than everyone thinks... or just not.

 

[RangerWickett]

What might work is for these long-term conditions to come into play only rarely - when a character drops below 0 hit points for example. This could then be described as the character sustaining a serious wound that martial "healing" and even "normal" magical healing can only overcome temporarily.

In an effort to make a modular combat system (people just have at-wills, no dailies or encounters), I needed a way to cause conditions, so I devised a small rule subset for afflicting scaling conditions. If someone uses a power that slows you enough times in a row, or crits while using it, it can actually break your leg.

I'll post it in House Rules in a bit.

 

[RangerWickett]

There, posted: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan...-hits-wounds-d-d-4th-edition.html#post4997633