Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4E combat and powers: How to keep the baby and not the bathwater?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 5854543" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>Since the announcement of 5E, I've probably played three or four sessions of 4E and each time I've had one eye on the game experience in relation to 5E - just keeping note of what I like, what is problematic, and so forth. Over the last few months or more I've found myself more and more disillusioned with 4E - longing for a more traditional D&D feel, and checking out Pathfinder as a consequence.</p><p></p><p>Honestly, I'm torn. The character I'm playing is a 15th level ranger; on one hand I like having encounter and daily powers, mainly because of the tactical element, but also because of the "wow" effect of using something like Blade Cascade or Attacks on the Run. But there has been and continues to be something "off" about 4E (for me), and it boils down to this: the powers economy, pure and simple. The problem is that it is both the strength and weakness of the 4E game. Like a Greek hero, 4E's <em>arete </em>is also its <em>hamartia - </em>its divine gift is also its fatal flaw.</p><p></p><p>To put it another way:</p><p></p><p><strong>Good: </strong>Tactical combat, special options (powers) for non-spellcasters; being able to do stuff other than just "I attack."</p><p><strong>Bad: </strong>Encounter/Daily restrictions and "gamist" supposition ("once you use it, its gone"); general abstraction that removes players from their characters and discourages improvised, imaginative play (outside of the power structure).</p><p></p><p>If I were designing 5E, I would be thinking about this: How to keep the best of 4E's power system and throw out the bad? How to not throw out the baby with the bathwater? In other words, in our rush to regain what was lost and move back to a pre-4E "authentic" D&D feel--which I'm all for--let's not lose that which 4E offered that actually improved the game: the options and tactical richness of 4E combat.</p><p></p><p>One idea that came to mind is keeping powers (perhaps as a modular option that can be ported over class features), but rather than having a set number of daily and encounter powers, PCs have a "power pool" in which they can either boost combat maneuvers and make them more powerful (say, boost up Twin Strike so it does a full damage bonus or is 2W instead of 1W) or spend points on dailies or encounters and be able to use them whenever you want, within the limit of the Power Pool. For example, let's say that encounter powers cost 2 points and dailies 3; this would be the equivalent of spell points: if you have, say, 9 Power Points you can use the same daily power three times before running out. Maybe taking a second wind recharges the Power Pool.</p><p></p><p>Of course the problem with this idea is that it still retains the "gamist" approach that separates players from their characters. It just doesn't make sense within the context of the narrative that non-magical powers are "Vancian" -- that is, they are "fired and forgotten." Perhaps one way around this is once the Power Pool and/or daily and encounters are used up, a PC can still use an encounter or daily power but they take a penalty. The idea being that they are fatigued and can only do "normal" (at-will) actions that don't overly tax them without taking a penalty. So, for instance, let's say I've used Attacks on the Run (or used up my Power Pool) but want to use it again, so as a daily power I could use it but take, say, a -4 or -5 to my rolls. If it were an encounter power, I'd maybe take a -2 or -3. </p><p></p><p>Any ideas? Do you feel similarly or do you love powers and hope they're retained or hate them and hope they're thrown out completely?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 5854543, member: 59082"] Since the announcement of 5E, I've probably played three or four sessions of 4E and each time I've had one eye on the game experience in relation to 5E - just keeping note of what I like, what is problematic, and so forth. Over the last few months or more I've found myself more and more disillusioned with 4E - longing for a more traditional D&D feel, and checking out Pathfinder as a consequence. Honestly, I'm torn. The character I'm playing is a 15th level ranger; on one hand I like having encounter and daily powers, mainly because of the tactical element, but also because of the "wow" effect of using something like Blade Cascade or Attacks on the Run. But there has been and continues to be something "off" about 4E (for me), and it boils down to this: the powers economy, pure and simple. The problem is that it is both the strength and weakness of the 4E game. Like a Greek hero, 4E's [I]arete [/I]is also its [I]hamartia - [/I]its divine gift is also its fatal flaw. To put it another way: [B]Good: [/B]Tactical combat, special options (powers) for non-spellcasters; being able to do stuff other than just "I attack." [B]Bad: [/B]Encounter/Daily restrictions and "gamist" supposition ("once you use it, its gone"); general abstraction that removes players from their characters and discourages improvised, imaginative play (outside of the power structure). If I were designing 5E, I would be thinking about this: How to keep the best of 4E's power system and throw out the bad? How to not throw out the baby with the bathwater? In other words, in our rush to regain what was lost and move back to a pre-4E "authentic" D&D feel--which I'm all for--let's not lose that which 4E offered that actually improved the game: the options and tactical richness of 4E combat. One idea that came to mind is keeping powers (perhaps as a modular option that can be ported over class features), but rather than having a set number of daily and encounter powers, PCs have a "power pool" in which they can either boost combat maneuvers and make them more powerful (say, boost up Twin Strike so it does a full damage bonus or is 2W instead of 1W) or spend points on dailies or encounters and be able to use them whenever you want, within the limit of the Power Pool. For example, let's say that encounter powers cost 2 points and dailies 3; this would be the equivalent of spell points: if you have, say, 9 Power Points you can use the same daily power three times before running out. Maybe taking a second wind recharges the Power Pool. Of course the problem with this idea is that it still retains the "gamist" approach that separates players from their characters. It just doesn't make sense within the context of the narrative that non-magical powers are "Vancian" -- that is, they are "fired and forgotten." Perhaps one way around this is once the Power Pool and/or daily and encounters are used up, a PC can still use an encounter or daily power but they take a penalty. The idea being that they are fatigued and can only do "normal" (at-will) actions that don't overly tax them without taking a penalty. So, for instance, let's say I've used Attacks on the Run (or used up my Power Pool) but want to use it again, so as a daily power I could use it but take, say, a -4 or -5 to my rolls. If it were an encounter power, I'd maybe take a -2 or -3. Any ideas? Do you feel similarly or do you love powers and hope they're retained or hate them and hope they're thrown out completely? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
4E combat and powers: How to keep the baby and not the bathwater?
Top