D&D 4E 4E combat and powers: How to keep the baby and not the bathwater?

[Mercurius]

Since the announcement of 5E, I've probably played three or four sessions of 4E and each time I've had one eye on the game experience in relation to 5E - just keeping note of what I like, what is problematic, and so forth. Over the last few months or more I've found myself more and more disillusioned with 4E - longing for a more traditional D&D feel, and checking out Pathfinder as a consequence.

Honestly, I'm torn. The character I'm playing is a 15th level ranger; on one hand I like having encounter and daily powers, mainly because of the tactical element, but also because of the "wow" effect of using something like Blade Cascade or Attacks on the Run. But there has been and continues to be something "off" about 4E (for me), and it boils down to this: the powers economy, pure and simple. The problem is that it is both the strength and weakness of the 4E game. Like a Greek hero, 4E's arete is also its hamartia - its divine gift is also its fatal flaw.

To put it another way:

Good: Tactical combat, special options (powers) for non-spellcasters; being able to do stuff other than just "I attack."
Bad: Encounter/Daily restrictions and "gamist" supposition ("once you use it, its gone"); general abstraction that removes players from their characters and discourages improvised, imaginative play (outside of the power structure).

If I were designing 5E, I would be thinking about this: How to keep the best of 4E's power system and throw out the bad? How to not throw out the baby with the bathwater? In other words, in our rush to regain what was lost and move back to a pre-4E "authentic" D&D feel--which I'm all for--let's not lose that which 4E offered that actually improved the game: the options and tactical richness of 4E combat.

One idea that came to mind is keeping powers (perhaps as a modular option that can be ported over class features), but rather than having a set number of daily and encounter powers, PCs have a "power pool" in which they can either boost combat maneuvers and make them more powerful (say, boost up Twin Strike so it does a full damage bonus or is 2W instead of 1W) or spend points on dailies or encounters and be able to use them whenever you want, within the limit of the Power Pool. For example, let's say that encounter powers cost 2 points and dailies 3; this would be the equivalent of spell points: if you have, say, 9 Power Points you can use the same daily power three times before running out. Maybe taking a second wind recharges the Power Pool.

Of course the problem with this idea is that it still retains the "gamist" approach that separates players from their characters. It just doesn't make sense within the context of the narrative that non-magical powers are "Vancian" -- that is, they are "fired and forgotten." Perhaps one way around this is once the Power Pool and/or daily and encounters are used up, a PC can still use an encounter or daily power but they take a penalty. The idea being that they are fatigued and can only do "normal" (at-will) actions that don't overly tax them without taking a penalty. So, for instance, let's say I've used Attacks on the Run (or used up my Power Pool) but want to use it again, so as a daily power I could use it but take, say, a -4 or -5 to my rolls. If it were an encounter power, I'd maybe take a -2 or -3.

Any ideas? Do you feel similarly or do you love powers and hope they're retained or hate them and hope they're thrown out completely?

 

[mkill]

"You can retry martial encounters / dailys, but at a penalty" was something I wanted to add to 4E from the first time I read it. It wouldn't change too much about the game balance (you're better off using at-wills at that point), but it would add so much to believability.

The other thing 4E needs is a set of basic attacks to represent common simple combat maneuvers, to encourage characters to be more creative, not just rattle off their powers. Distract, disarm, trip, throw, push, pull, reckless attack, shield ally, groin kick... it doesn't need to be a long list, but it would help 4E a long way to support more narrative combat.

In general, 4E is too rules-barebone. It doesn't spend enough space bringing the classes and powers alive. In other words, more fluff. Fluff is good.

 

[Minigiant]

Well if the suspension of belief harming, powers economy is a problem for many people... how about just removing the encounter/daily powers and increasing the viability of the basic combat actions.

How hard is it to make a nice list of combat actions that are not extremely complex, viable at all levels, and interesting.
Bullrush, distract, disarm, grapple, trip, throw, overrun, manyshot, two weapon attack, push, grab, power attack, cleave, shield bash, low blow..

 

[Ahnehnois]

The whole "daily" and "encounter" limitation idea is an absolute nightmare and needs to be gone from any kind of nonmagic ability and limited as much as possible with magic. An actual fatigue system that drained the characters as they fight would be fine, but I doubt we'll see that anywhere near the core.

The idea that a character sheet needs to be filled with dozens of highly specific abilities is nonsensical and makes it pretty difficult to actually play the game.

Some kind of concept of out-of-turn actions and active defense would be helpful. It would also be nice if the rules described actions other than "I attack" well (combat maneuvers in PF terminology, as well as combat reactions and combat exploits in TB terminology), just not in the class descriptions. The class descriptions should tell you how fighters deflect blows better than anyone else, how rogues stab people in the back more viciously than anyone else, and how barbarians channel their rage better than anyone else. A good fighter should be not only powerful, but versatile and simple.

There is probably a place for the wuxia-type quasi-supernatural abilities, but a 1st level core fighter is not it. Indeed, I think a nice ki-based system of hyperreal martial arts would be a great foundation for an "Oriental Adventures" or equivalent (but still not balanced by daily use limitations). It's very important that different characters have different mechanics.

 

[FireLance]

If you are willing to make some assumptions of what would be a "normal" adventuring day - number of encounters per day, number of rounds per encounter - you could come up with some form of randomization that would allow martial "encounter" and "daily" powers to appear at roughly the same proportion as Vancian or AEDU abilities.

For example, if you are willing to assume that a typical adventuring day would consist of 4 encounters of 5 rounds each, and that an AEDU character would use 4 encounter powers and 1 daily power over those 20 rounds, you could have a "encounter" power level effect trigger whenever the character makes an attack roll and gets a score of 16-19 and a "daily" power level effect trigger whenever he gets a natural 20.

The specific effect could depend on what stance or fighting style the character is using at the time that the "encounter" or "daily" effect is triggered. A stance that increased damage could add +1[W] for an encounter-level effect and +2[W] for a daily level effect (more at higher levels). A stance that distracts an opponent, causing him to grant combat advantage on a hit, might daze him on a 16-19 and stun him on a natural 20.

Of course, if you aren't willing to assume what a typical adventuring day is like, or you see no real need to balance a martial character's potential "encounter" and "daily" power output with an AEDU or Vancian spellcaster, you could just set the numbers however you want and then let everything sort itself out in play.

Another possibility, more complicated but perhaps more tactical, would be the random acquisition of "encounter" and "daily" powers at the start of each encounter (perhaps the character gets one roll per opponent), flavored as spotting exploitable weaknesses in the opponents' fighting styles. Choosing to use a power then becomes flavored as choosing when to exploit that specific weakness. Again, the distribution of encounter and daily powers could, if so desired, be set so that the character gets about the same number of "encounter" and "daily" powers, on average, as a Vancian or AEDU spellcaster.

 

[Minigiant]

The whole "daily" and "encounter" limitation idea is an absolute nightmare and needs to be gone from any kind of nonmagic ability and limited as much as possible with magic. An actual fatigue system that drained the characters as they fight would be fine, but I doubt we'll see that anywhere near the core.

Oh how I dreamed of a fatigue system in D&D.
I toyed with the idea in 3E and 4E.
I once did a oneshot game with DM who used a Vitality and wounds system. He let warrior classes sacrifice vitality points for extra actions, full attacks as standard actions.

Spending all your vitality and all but 1 of your wound points to take 3 moves actions and full attack power attack with no penalties at the orc chief.

Good times.

 

[DMKastmaria]

How hard is it to make a nice list of combat actions that are not extremely complex, viable at all levels, and interesting.
Bullrush, distract, disarm, grapple, trip, throw, overrun, manyshot, two weapon attack, push, grab, power attack, cleave, shield bash, low blow..

Not hard at all. It's what I do for 1e and other old school games I run.

 

[Minigiant]

Not hard at all. It's what I do for 1e and other old school games I run.

I know. Everyone does... eventually... once someone decides to do something other than "I attack".

But for SOME reason we only ever get a half-done list in the official books.

 

[n00bdragon]

Well if the suspension of belief harming, powers economy is a problem for many people... how about just removing the encounter/daily powers and increasing the viability of the basic combat actions.

How hard is it to make a nice list of combat actions that are not extremely complex, viable at all levels, and interesting.
Bullrush, distract, disarm, grapple, trip, throw, overrun, manyshot, two weapon attack, push, grab, power attack, cleave, shield bash, low blow..

This isn't a terrible idea but every time I suggest that the same thing be done for spellcasters (making a limited list of spells that they can use as much as they want) people throw a tantrum.

 

[Li Shenron]

Good: Tactical combat, special options (powers) for non-spellcasters; being able to do stuff other than just "I attack."
Bad: Encounter/Daily restrictions and "gamist" supposition ("once you use it, its gone"); general abstraction that removes players from their characters and discourages improvised, imaginative play (outside of the power structure).

...

One idea that came to mind is keeping powers (perhaps as a modular option that can be ported over class features), but rather than having a set number of daily and encounter powers, PCs have a "power pool" in which they can either boost combat maneuvers and make them more powerful (say, boost up Twin Strike so it does a full damage bonus or is 2W instead of 1W) or spend points on dailies or encounters and be able to use them whenever you want, within the limit of the Power Pool.

I agree on your premises, but I don't like your proposal.

For me the problem is exactly the limited number of times you can do your martial tricks.

I don't understand, why can't the designers just come up with only martial tricks that CAN be used without limits? I cannot believe that it's impossible to balance them with vancian spellcasters.

As for "being able to do something else than just attack", in 3ed there was a small series of options available to everyone (trip, sunder, feint, charge, disarm, fight defensively) + a small series of options that you had to "buy" (power attack and similar). Both of these series of things were not limited, you could do them as many times as you wanted, and therefore they did not feel "gamist" at all, they were quite ok for simulationists gamers too AFAIK.

So maybe the only problem to solve is balance them! Make them scale up more with level...

A 3ed Wizard at level 10th has 16 spells per day minimum (not counting cantrips) about 1/3 of which of the two highest levels + typically some more from Int bonus, scrolls and other items. I play a lot of spellcasters, and I don't easily run out of spells at this point... I am more or less able to cast almost a spell per round.

So this level could be the starting point from which the martial always at-will powers can be designed on par with spells (whereas at lower level they should be weaker than spells since the latter are more scarce).