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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5855650" data-attributes="member: 54877">The inherent problem with the "simple list of maneuvers" is that they are either lousy (and not much used) or potentially overpowered.  It is a very fine line.  No one writing the 3E feats expected a "trip monkey" archetype to emerge. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> When you throw in simulation and fantasy narrative concerns, it gets even more complex.  Disarming and tripping are often much more difficult than projected, but not as difficult as the baseline needs to be set.  So "make it lousy by default but work just super with a single feat choice" is functionally 99% the same as "you have an at-will power that codifies that you can now do this--or you don't do it."  Characters who have mechanical widget X do it a lot, and those that don't have X, don't do it at all.  Whereas both the simulation and fantasy narrative approaches are more along the lines of "comes up occasionally and the trained character pounces" (simulation) or "arises occasionally in the story, and the character does something dramatic" (fantasy narrative).  Neither of those address the "grit to wahoo" scale, either. So my best suggestion is that the base maneuvers be codified as such, for anyone to use, but that all of them be so codified as universally lousy options.  Trying to "disarm" all the time IS a terribly lousy option.  Then on top of this, build several alternate means to make the options more palatable by giving enhancements to the base:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">High grit - if you don't have some kind of huge situational bonus, the options remain lousy.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Situational by training - characters have abilities that improve the odds when that situation comes up.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Situational by fiction - a lot like the previous, but see Lost Soul's reply above.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ADEU powers grant you bonuses to the base maneuvers.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can take feats, 3E style, which do make the options very nice, and presumably govern overuse by other means (or don't mind it).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The lousy base is the worst it can get.  Use a powerpoint/fatigue system to start out about as good as normal attacks, but regress to the lousy base as your points run out.</li> </ul>The nasty problems only enter when someone wraps up the "thing that makes this palatable" and the "base nature of the thing" all in one easy package--whether 3E feats or 4E powers or presumed fatigue system or whatever.  Split those out separately, and you can have an easy distinction between:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What anyone can do, anytime, versus,</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What some people can do well, sometime.</li> </ul></blockquote>

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